onewheeldave

76,945 is the current number of signatures on the petition, that's 8,000 up on yesterday https://speakout.38degrees.org.uk/campaigns/template-petition-clone-5a6b43a6-8b0e-44c6-96f9-659670514614?utm_campaign=PBO49NxE9K&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=member

I don't find it difficult to understand- I'm self employed myself. Life's not quite so tough for those who have jobs which not only don't fine them £250 for being sick, but actually pay them while they're unable to work due to illness. Self employed and working for parcel force. Self employed people not working for parcel force tend not to have to stump up £250 when they are ill.(or, to get their work, sign a contract stating that they have to pay £250 when they are ill). I certainly don't. ---------- Post added 12-03-2017 at 23:35 ---------- I'd prefer that Parcelforce cease to charge their self employed workers £250 when they are ill.

True. You're apologists for defending a corrupt business practice. It's not an insult, it's a description. Forcing does not require guns to heads or kidnappings of offspring. These workers live in a world of scarce jobs and many are couriers because they have no other options. Do you think they enjoy having to pay £250 when they have a migraine. No, of course not. Why do they sign the contract requiring them to pay £250 when they have a migraine? Because otherwise, they don't get the job. ---------- Post added 12-03-2017 at 23:16 ---------- Petition- https://speakout.38degrees.org.uk/campaigns/template-petition-clone-5a6b43a6-8b0e-44c6-96f9-659670514614?utm_campaign=PBO49NxE9K&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=member Currently 71,110 people have signed.

Nevertheless, it's the petition that triggered me initiating this thread, and, it's currently being signed by what appears to be one new person every second. As for being 'badly worded'- maybe it's not composed of the kind of legal gibbareese that so appeals to those so bought in to the system that they want every challenge to the status quo to go through several 'steering group/committees', be composed by a team of expensive lawyers and take 5 years to complete so everyone's forgotten what the point was Because it's directed towards M&S/John Lewis, and all it needs to do is make it clear to them that a huge number of people (potential customers and therefore potential boycotters) are very much opposed to parcel force (effectively) charging £250 for each day off sick. I am doing something- I'm happy with what I'm doing. I don't need your advice as to what I should do, because, if you haven't noticed, I disagree with you.

For anyone who wishes to end Parcel force making their self-employed workers pay £250 per day when they are too ill to work, here's the 38degrees online petition- https://speakout.38degrees.org.uk/campaigns/template-petition-clone-5a6b43a6-8b0e-44c6-96f9-659670514614?utm_campaign=PBO49NxE9K&utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=member I believe they're sending it to M&S and John Lewis as they make extensive use of Parcelforce, and the hope is that a huge 'NO' from the public will convince them to put pressure on Parcelforce to end this abusive practice.

No-one is disputing that there's a contract between parcel force and their self employed workers specifying that the worker has to pay £250 when they can't cover their round due to illness. Yes- to get their job, the worker has had to sign a document stating that if they are sick, they must pay £250: increasingly this is what workers are having to do if they want to stay off benefits. As we rush ever closer to the point where abstract corporations become the dominant life form on this planet, leaving human beings as nothing other than disposable cogs serving the systems they created initially to serve them; we have a small window of opportunity to open our eyes, see the insanity of where we're heading, and commit to saying 'no' to grossly unfair working practices like the above. Rise above the bleatings of the apologists and recognise the fundamental issue here, which is that employees are, to keep their jobs, being forced to pay £250 for every day that they are too ill to work:mad:

If parcel force continue to get away with this practice, then yes, it will be written into other employment contracts, on the grounds that to not do so, would place other companies at an 'economic disadvantage' relative to parcel force. That's why it's very important that the public (whose own children will suffer at the hands of those future contract clauses) stand up and condemn these brutal and unjust employment practices.

Forgive me for not getting distracted by a variety of side issues and strawmen I'm focused on the fact that some parcel force employees are, and have been, made to pay £250 when they take a sick day. That is very, very wrong. And, what's just as sad, if not more so, is that much of the public, instead of condemning this practice, instead pull attention away from it by asking what proportion of employees are made to pay £250, or, does it depend on the time of day they ring Employees are being made to pay £250 when they have to take a sick day. The world truly has gone to <removed> we are living in the age of the apologists

It's the self-employed workers (make up 25% of parcel force employees)

Obviously the thread is about the self employed parcel force workers, as they are the ones subject to a £250 cost if they have to take a sick day.

These days low paid workers do not get to choose- they have to take what they can get out of a generally shoddy range of options of zero-hour-contracts, self employment, agency work etc, etc. The days of decent jobs where workers are treated with decency and covered for the inevitable sicks days are in very short supply. In many cases it's because they've no choice- there's insufficient actual 'proper' jobs so it's self-employment, or a life of abuse and fear on benefits.

Yes, of course, I quoted it in my reply. But, it's often the way of apologists that they commence by agreeing, before inserting the 'however...' followed by whatever justification of the immoral companies policy they're churning out. Now it's strawman time A world of enforcable signed legal documents is entirely compatible with companies not charging their staff £250 (or any amount) for being ill and having to take a day off sick.

...and here come the apologists It is wrong, fully wrong- no justifications for it

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/mar/06/sick-parcelforce-couriers-royal-mail-mands-john-lewis-hamleys-dpd Just signed an online petition on this. Parcel force charge their workers £250 for each day they have off sick, to cover the cost of a replacement driver. This is wrong- drivers are self employed and already lose a days earnings if they are too ill to work- £250 is more than the days earnings already lost.

Part of the problem is that ZHCs facilitate bad deals- as well as the options for hitting the employee available with both forms of contract, ZHCs have the additional one of simply denying hours to the employee. Fact is, that if the workers got to work, the employer can harm him/her equally well with both types of contract, but ZHCs carry the additional stress of being given insufficient hours to cover the workers living requirements. They also bypass dismissal safeguards, as the employer can simply give so few hours that the worker has to quit.

I'm not saying there aren't. Just that, for those with a mortgage and family commitments, a ZHC job doesn't cover their requirements in terms of income security. Mortgage payments don't stop if one week they get no hours. Their families food and education and clothing needs don't stop if one week they get no hours. What a horrible, stressful way to live. And, the more of our nations working hours are taken up by ZHCs, the less are available for 'proper' jobs, that do have the kind of consistent hours that make paying a mortgage feasible.

It is special. The typical diet and lifestyle of much of the population is leaving them in terrible health, And it's getting worse- the problems are showing up at ever younger ages. Many 25 year olds are in far worse health than me (I'm 50). It's established fact that the epidemics of obesity, type 2 diabetes and heart disease are primarily caused by bad diet and lifestyle.

Plus of course, even if the survey was accurate, it's not that relevant. The people who can't exist on ZHCs (those with mortgages, family commitments etc) wouldn't have figured in the survey as they wouldn't be on ZHCs. That leaves people without mortgages and family commitments, who, due to their lack of mortgage and family commitments, will tend to be happier people due to lack of crushing stress.

On a related note (employer abuse) here's an email I just got from "38 degrees action group"-

Probably because too many people are doing google research into the meters, seeing the negatives, and deciding to decline them. Typical of corporations to get 'pushy' when that happens

Given that your rent was £25/week, you weren't really on a low income, were you

It was in response to your - Those from the care system do not have the option of 'staying at home'. ---------- Post added 06-03-2017 at 22:30 ---------- Threat? ECCOnoobs a lawyer?!? Seems to have a disturbing lack of eye for detail... along with his/her several slips when suggesting those coming out of care can 'stay at home' ...hope he/she doesn't make slips like that when it comes to their clients cases.

From your link £3.40x40hrsx4=£544 ---------- Post added 06-03-2017 at 19:52 ---------- They're from the care system, they have no home.

Do you not understand what the care system is?

In terms of actual results there's not much difference between the two Many vulnerable people slip through the 'safety nets' due to highly rigid bureaucracy- in particular, those on the autistic spectrum are at high risk of not receiving support.