onewheeldave

I research a lot of stuff to do with health, diet etc. These things are very complex, and, as you will fully realise, getting closer to truth takes a lot of time and energy (especially as there is a great deal of misinformation, distortion and suppression, due to the financial interests of the pharmaceutical & food industries). So I have to prioritise- things like diet, b12 issue and why the NHS is so far removed from being a 'health' service, all affect me greatly, so that's what I spend my time researching. Vaccinations, MMR etc I'm primarily interested in due to things like the NHS trying to coerce parents into getting their child/ren MMR'd, and refusing them the very reasonable alternative of seperate vaccinations. Of course I defend the right of every parent to not have their child vaccinated- in general, I'm pro-choice. But, as to whether vaccines per se are bad or good, I really couldn't say- I've simply not researched it to the extent that would be necessary. TBH, it's a low priority as I know I certainly won't be getting vaccinated, and, having no children, I won't have to face that decision either. I can see there's some extremely suspicious behaviour with the national health services over vaccines, and it’s obvious that MMR and the ‘flu jab’ are likely things to avoid totally. I also find that pseudo-rationalisr/sceptic types are drawn to vaccine support and national health system apologism, bringing in a lot of intellectual-sounding but logically invalid ‘arguments’ to bolster their cause. That’s not just annoying, it’s dangerous, because they’re propping up systems that are causing great harm. The NHS blocking people from acquiring B12 is appaling. It’s crazy that it’s now preventing people from using a substance that they either need, or at least stongly feel they need it, when that substance is proven beyond doubt to be harmless, and, is also very cheap. That’s a clear example, possibly the clearest, of a system that is out-of-control, not fit for purpose, and, extremely dangerous. Decades of managing symptoms with billions of patients on life-long medication, with illnesses that didn’t need to exist, have turned these national health systems into monsters. The tragedy is that the majority of the workers in that system, are decent honest people. These systems were created with the good intention of serving humans, now humans are serving the systems.

You're welcome. I'll look forward to that ---------- Post added 19-02-2016 at 18:25 ---------- A lot of the people who didn't want MMR were pro-vaccine in general. They weren't against vaccines per se, they just had an issue with MMR. Perhaps you should get a petition going demanding better access to MMR, see how many signatures that gets

Yes, many autistics use language literally. literal language is essential to productive debate. However, my (officially tested with documents available) IQ scores reveal that in the category of 'verbal fluency' I score 99.9%, putting me in the top 1 in a thousand of the population. So I'm actually fairly nifty when it comes to language use. Unlike some of the pseudo-rationalists on this thread who lack the ability to 'use language literally'. Which, I believe, explains their tendency to strawman i.e. it's not deliberate, they simply can't use words with precision, and, therefore, can't 'see' conceptual entities (logic) without a great deal of blurring and confusion.

If cutbacks are necessary, then we should cutback on buying weapons/building bombs/'war on drugs' etc, well before cutting health, welfare and benefits.

He should be. People who try to change the system from within by working with it, tend to either quit it, or, become apologists for it. State 'health systems' are no longer about health, they're now a cog in a set of systems whose decisions are based primarily on financial interests. ---------- Post added 19-02-2016 at 11:25 ---------- 'Admitting defeat doesn't mean admitting I was wrong' :lol: Still, at least you're on record as stating that 'I (onewheeldave) admitted defeat' (which, I believe, most humans with a basic ability in rational thought will recognise as an admission that I considered myself to be wrong).

Yes you have (posted now, for the second time on this thread) As you seem to have issues with language use: 'admit defeat' = me admitting I was wrong (on the master switch issue). So there's the checkable evidence on that one.

:thumbsup: spot on- whatever the state of the economy, there's always plenty of cash for bombs, weapons, 'war on drugs', 'war on terror', oppression of innocents. When will people realise that the scum politicians who come up with these insane policies, can only do so because the people are so deluded as to let them continue to do so.

Yes you did (claim that I won't ever admit when I was wrong)

Well observed- I 100% agree. One thing that's really noticeable recently is that any criticism of an established system, no matter how corrupt, and a horde of 'apologists' appear to defend it. Recently I did a thread about how pensioners and other vulnerables were being fleeced by 118 charges- £5 minimum for the call, and sometimes £80-£120 if actually put you through to the number you're looking for. The number of apologists saying people should check the small print and that it was the pensioners own fault for not doing so, was staggering. The high-up trash who are actually coming up with ways to screw the public are no longer the real problem- it's the sheep/apologists who invade every discussion with their placatory defences of said systems, who are truly at the heart of it. ---------- Post added 18-02-2016 at 18:22 ---------- It can be, if that youtube video is one made by one of the many respectable and practicing medical professionals who are posting videos cos it's the best way for them to get their (evidence backed) information out to the general public. Not true. Theres's a worldwide community of people who, having despaired of the corruption evident in national health systems, are getting their info from sources like youtube and other online resources. ---------- Post added 18-02-2016 at 18:24 ---------- What about me :clap: am I relegated to no.2 position? ---------- Post added 18-02-2016 at 18:27 ---------- Not even when you claimed incorrectly that I never admitted I was wrong, and, to prove it, posted an actual quote of myself admitting I was wrong??

Here's the list of UK Welfare Reform Deaths- claimants incapable of work who were found to be 'capable of work' during assessments, and, who died shortly thereafter, in most cases by suicide. Vulnerable, ill, disabled- all they had was their home, and, realising that, without beneifts, they would lose it, they chose to leave this world. http://blacktrianglecampaign.org/2014/10/21/uk-welfare-reform-deaths-updated-list-october-21st-2014/

For those unhappy with the NHS's inadequate allocations of b12- http://www.nursinginpractice.com/article/pernicious-anaemia-patients-suffering-needlessly petition (and links to info) here- https://www.change.org/p/ian-hudson-please-make-our-life-saving-injectable-vitamin-b12-hydroxocobalamin-available-over-the-counter be aware that UK gps are hopelessly out-of-date with their approach to b12 here's a United Kingdom National External Quality Assessment Service (UK NEQAS) alert for b12- all organisations with genuine knowledge of b12 issues advise, when there is suspicion or possiblity of b12 absorbancy issues, that immediate b12 injections are administered, as b12 is harmless and cheap, and, by the time symptoms of b12 deficiency occur, irreversible nerve damage is likely to be taking place.

I'm no Tory We both know, that this- or anything like it, is not from any Tory handbook. ---------- Post added 18-02-2016 at 11:45 ---------- My opinion- over-systematisation. Decision makers getting ever further removed from patients whose lives are affected by their decisions. Those decisions being informed by a medical study system that is provenly corrupt and whose output is significantly affected by commercial interests and political lobbying. An approach based primarily on symptom management, with totally (in the main part) preventable diseases like heart disease, type II diabetes and obesity leading to huge numbers of patients requiring life-long symptom management, thus ensuring that resources are not available to tackle the prevention of those diseases in the future. Overwhelming evidence is showing that heart disease, type II diabetes and obesity are pretty much entirely due to what we eat. Overwhelming evidence shows that less developed nations where the population eats primarily a traditional plant based diet of relatively unprocessed food, simply do not suffer from epidemics of diseases like heart disease, type II diabetes and obesity (obviously mortality rates are often blurred by sanitation issues- but, in the absence of those, such people tend to live long healthy lives and are active even in old age). ---------- Post added 18-02-2016 at 11:49 ---------- I don't think it can be now- the NHS is doomed. As the key problem is bureaucracy and over-systematisation, even if more money were available (it isn't), it would only lead to greater bureaucracy, more systematisation an even greater numbers of patients on life-long symptom management and an even more clogged up system.

You're spot on. Sufferers get 1 injection every 3 months. They've set up the petition as, 1. many require more frequent injections, as evidenced by their symptoms increasing 1 month after the injection, and, getting worse over the following 2 months as they have to wait for the next one. 2. they've got large amounts of evidence showing the NHS's quotas for B12 are way too low. Remember, injectable B12 is both very cheap (especially when compared to the anti-depressants frequently pushed on patients whose true issue is B12 deficiency) and, very, very safe. ---------- Post added 18-02-2016 at 11:31 ---------- The rise in 54' was relatively small, and, the fall immediately afterwards started, before the vaccinations. To be honest, those 2 rises/falls are so much smaller than the ones we talked about previously, that they're even more likely to be random fluctuations. Nevertheless, if you're going to see them as significant, you have to admit that the rise in 54' was relatively small, and, the fall immediately afterwards started, before the vaccinations.

No, I'm not saying that. It could have been random, it could have been something else.

Just to be clear on this- are you saying that people in the UK sufffering from things like pernacious anemia aren't being denied injectable B12?

Unless that prior dip wasn't a random fluctuation, but instead, the start of a steady decline in cases due to factors other than the vaccinations which where brought in just after the start of that decline. Does anyone have a graph that goes further back in time, as that would be helpfull in trying to work out whether or not the pre 1955 drop was a random fluctuation or not.

No I'm not. I was pointing out that, as the numbers dropped before vaccinations, then other factors than vaccination must be responsible. Normal random fluctuations are clearly a factor other than vaccinations so I'm theorizing nothing there.

And that will assist with this, how exactly?- There comes a time, Obelix, where it's just best to admit you messed up (just like I did on the trailer master switch issue). If you're wrong, and you know you're wrong, it's not actually painfull to own up to it. You should try it. Strawmaning from those claiming to be rationalists, is not pleasant to see.

I applaud your open-mindedness. ---------- Post added 18-02-2016 at 10:49 ---------- In the case of B12, they're denying sufferers a medicine that is very cheap, and, known to be one of the most harmless substances out there. I do think that's odd, yes.

It's not a theory, it's a fact. The graphs you linked show massive drops before vaccinations were brought in. Clearly vaccinations cannot be responsible for drops in polio before the vaccines were administered. Therefore, other factors must have caused those drops. Go look at the graphs again- they show massive drops starting before vaccination.

I can't help noticing that, on the first graph, prior to the commencement of the vaccine in 1955, polio cases had fallen by a massive 30,000 from the previous high of 60,000. In the second graph, cases fell from a high of 3,000, to 1,000, again, before vaccinations. Massive drops starting before the vaccinations. Other factors than vaccines were clearly behind those drops- those factors may well account for the continuing drops post vaccination.

Having looked at it, and read it, this part stood out- If the NHS wishes to push vaccination on people who don't want it, perhaps they should ensure that those who do want to get their older children vaccinated, can do so, without requiring them to pay privately? The NHS seems to be in a bizarre position of, on one hand, compelling patients to have treatments (MMR etc), whilst simultaneously denying it to others, eg the above mentioned meningitis B vaccine. They're also currently denying B12 injections to pernicious anaemia sufferers- https://www.change.org/p/ian-hudson-please-make-our-life-saving-injectable-vitamin-b12-hydroxocobalamin-available-over-the-counter

The part in bold is clearly, clearly, not true

I find it highly unlikely that Amey would get complaints if they prioritised roads that actually get used a lot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man no-one has suggested that "the side-effects of the vaccine are in the same league in terms of their harmfulness". What they are concerned about, is that the side-effects exist at all, that they can be life-destroying, and that parents should have choices. Not just the choice as to whether or not to vaccinate (as many of those opposing MMR are actually very much in favour of vaccinations), but, the choice to have single vaccines as an alternative to MMR. ---------- Post added 17-02-2016 at 10:43 ---------- You watched the video in question?