Drug prohibition costs lives

being stoned is obviously affecting your ability to read.

Being sozzled on alcopops is doing you the world of good with your research

So it is rehab that causes it to decline and not the fact it is free, and rehab can easily be made available to addicts without giving away free drugs.

Dont point out the obvious! You will muddle up their mutterings.

I made a point yesterday that if I could help just one addict, ten more new ones would appear. I used the word "if" because therapy is not guaranteed to be successful, however much the softies would like to believe it, and if this if is the only hope the softies have regarding legalisation, then only our individual gods can help us, because the only answer in this unwinnable war is education.

you missed out the second part of his sentence about dealers leaving the area, it takes dealers and thus crime out of the equation

I did not forget it was just not relevant to the pointy I made.

So it is rehab that causes it to decline and not the fact it is free, and rehab can easily be made available to addicts without giving away free drugs.

No, it's a combination of all the factors,

(It's funny I knew that particular piece of my post would be singled out as some sort of definitive reason to ignore the point)

The primary aim is -should be- to make it safe, as safe as can possibly be. Heroin in the hands of people who cut it for profit is generally not safe.

The secondary aim should be to be able to get off it as quickly as possible as and when desired. Heroin is a very safe drug in the hands of the nhs but it's still addictive.

The third point should be that it shouldn't have to cost the taxpayer umpteen million billion pounds to achieve aims one and two.

Rehab is not always wanted by heroin users nor is it always needed. What should be available is the sensible availability of trustworthy heroin.

By way of your thinking we should stop providing free condoms on the nhs as stds can be prevented by abstinence.

I did not forget it was just not relevant to the pointy I made.

Yes it is relevant. Unless you just want to increase the amount of rehab to addicts without stopping their supply from criminals?

No, it's a combination of all the factors,

So do you think giving it away for free on it own without rehab would decrease or increase consumption?

And do you think offering rehab to every user would make no difference to consumption unless free drugs are also available?

Are you seriously suggesting that rehab would only work if drugs are freely available to anyone that wants them?

---------- Post added 07-01-2015 at 21:46 ----------

Yes it is relevant.

Not to the point I made.

No, it's a combination of all the factors,

(It's funny I knew that particular piece of my post would be singled out as some sort of definitive reason to ignore the point)

 

The primary aim is -should be- to make it safe, as safe as can possibly be. Heroin in the hands of people who cut it for profit is generally not safe.

 

The secondary aim should be to be able to get off it as quickly as possible as and when desired. Heroin is a very safe drug in the hands of the nhs but it's still addictive.

 

The third point should be that it shouldn't have to cost the taxpayer umpteen million billion pounds to achieve aims one and two.

 

Rehab is not always wanted by heroin users nor is it always needed. What should be available is the sensible availability of trustworthy heroin.

 

By way of your thinking we should stop providing free condoms on the nhs as stds can be prevented by abstinence.

On this particular drug.

Shame the rest of the anti-drug brigade can't distinguish drugs and just group them together as one.

Dont point out the obvious! You will muddle up their mutterings.

I made a point yesterday that if I could help just one addict, ten more new ones would appear. I used the word "if" because therapy is not guaranteed to be successful, however much the softies would like to believe it, and if this if is the only hope the softies have regarding legalisation, then only our individual gods can help us, because the only answer in this unwinnable war is education.

muddle up their mutterings?

'I used the word "if" because therapy is not guaranteed to be successful, however much the softies would like to believe it'

-

can you hear yourself? When did the 'softies' claim that therapy was guaranteed to work btw? I don't think that is the claim made by 'the softies'.

The fact that you work in this field and are so black and white on this issue is very worrying. I hope you work for a private company and not the state.

Hows that? I first had a drink at 14 or before,had years and years of drinking socially and many years later in perfect health!

:hihi:

Gotta laugh really.

-

Of all the drug discussions over the years in here (I wasn't going to post in this latest one, but did anyway:rolleyes:), this thread is absolutely the worst example of crap logic and thinking from the 'anti-drug' posters.

On this particular drug.

 

Shame the rest of the anti-drug brigade can't distinguish drugs and just group them together as one.

 

 

 

muddle up their mutterings?

 

'I used the word "if" because therapy is not guaranteed to be successful, however much the softies would like to believe it'

 

-

 

can you hear yourself? When did the 'softies' claim that therapy was guaranteed to work btw? I don't think that is the claim made by 'the softies'.

 

The fact that you work in this field and are so black and white on this issue is very worrying. I hope you work for a private company and not the state.

 

 

 

:hihi:

 

Gotta laugh really.

 

-

 

Of all the drug discussions over the years in here (I wasn't going to post in this latest one, but did anyway:rolleyes:), this thread is absolutely the worst example of crap logic and thinking from the 'anti-drug' posters.

Sorry to disappoint you, but I do work for the NHS, and have always been upfront about it. I carry out my work in a professional manner, and always have the needs of the patient at the forefront.

As far as my personal feelings are concerned, it would be wrong for me to have any other view than the one I hold, as I truly believe that education and non-legislation is the way forward. You say that no-one has said that therapy will sort this out, but I beg to differ. You seem to be able to hunt out quotes, so hunt this one out a few posts back;

Prescribe heroin for free on the nhs and it's use declines as people enter rehab and dealers will abandon the area that's prescribing the drug thus reducing uptake.

Local crime committed by heroin addicts plummets as there is no cost to the addict,

The cost to the taxpayer plummets in unison as heroin is a very cheap drug to buy for the nhs, the dangers of street heroin and their associated medical costs practically disappear, the cost of policing, court costs, cost to business also decline.

Yep, that sounds like "Make it legal, and it will all be fine" mentality to me. Sadly, in the real world that is not the case. But one thing I do know is that Cannabis/Weed/Heroin/Ecstasy to name but a few, cause harm to human biology that in most cases cannot be reversed. Now, even if certain substances were to be made legal, do you think for one second that qualified physicians would administer these drugs, knowing what harm they cause when taken in non-medical quantities? I know what these medical professionals think about it, due to the nature of my job, and I can tell you without a shadow of a doubt that the medical profession is most certainly NOT in favour of legalisation.

You may think it should be, and im sorry that you are worried about the people who work within the NHS, and their thoughts on the matter, but whatever the lobbyists or politicians or "SOFTIES" may want to push through, this cannot be done without backup from the GMC, and because of the nature of the drugs, ie long term health/dependancy, recreational drugs of this ilk will not be available on the NHS in our lifetimes.

No matter how much pressure is put on by freedom sympathisers.

So do you think giving it away for free on it own without rehab would decrease or increase consumption?

 

And do you think offering rehab to every user would make no difference to consumption unless free drugs are also available?

 

Are you seriously suggesting that rehab would only work if drugs are freely available to anyone that wants them?

 

---------- Post added 07-01-2015 at 21:46 ----------

 

Not to the point I made.

Your questions don't make much logical sense, because your posing them with the aim of scoring points and seemingly driven by some sort of anti drug stance that appears to be unyielding to the blindingly obvious. hey ho I digress.

Depending what your aim regarding drugs are affects how the answers are provided.

Q1,Giving it away for free; isn't about reducing or increasing consumption it's about providing a safe and dependable substance. A user on a known/predictable strength can easily function as a productive member of society and if desired they can taper off to a nil dose, in it's own right a form of rehab.

Question 2, It isn't exclusive but nor is it linked. The free drugs are about regulation and safety and money and cost to society.

The rehab is about helping people abstain, the nhs providing the drugs makes the rehab easier and more manageable - you can prepare someone for rehab with much more skill if you know exactly what it is your 'rehabbing' from.

3, The drugs are already freely available to anyone that wants them (at a price)

It's not given away by the nhs recklessly, there are requirements for proscribing it

The issue of rehab is intertwined with supply but they don't really have anything to do with each other, further than he use of one leads to the need for the other. Yes I know that contradicts what I said above, but life isn't always simple.

I'm not sure why you (if you do, you seem to) oppose the nhs providing decent quality, dosed heroin to addicts.

---------- Post added 07-01-2015 at 23:14 ----------

 

Prescribe heroin for free on the nhs and it's use declines as people enter rehab and dealers will abandon the area that's prescribing the drug thus reducing uptake.

Local crime committed by heroin addicts plummets as there is no cost to the addict,

The cost to the taxpayer plummets in unison as heroin is a very cheap drug to buy for the nhs, the dangers of street heroin and their associated medical costs practically disappear, the cost of policing, court costs, cost to business also decline.

 

Yep, that sounds like "Make it legal, and it will all be fine" mentality to me. Sadly, in the real world that is not the case..

That quote is me Paraphrasing the results of a NHS dr giving away heroin to addicts who registered to his surgery

It's not 'make it legal, all will be fine' (although it shouldn't be illegal but that's a completely different discussion)

What it is, is why let the drug be supplied at ridiculous prices, which causes massive amounts of crime and suffering, is a very often not safe or dependable and then still go to the bother of trying to police and rectify the situation. A situation you patently can't stop unless, we as a society actually take control of it to do so.

I don't want to see it on the shelves of asda but at the same time I would prefer it if the nhs were in charge rather than the ones who are.

Are you seriously suggesting that rehab would only work if drugs are freely available to anyone that wants them?

And you say I'm the one that's missing the point

1) Cannabis is a relatively harmless drug when compared to alcohol. People will smoke it, whether you like it or not. Does legalisation dramatically increase public usage? NO.

Does legalisation remove the trade from criminals? Yes!

Does legalisation generate tax revenue? Yes, and it can be put towards some good causes, including rehab.

2) Heroin is a drug that everyone wants to see the back of. Is it currently easy to get hold of? Yes!

Will legalisation mean selling it to people in shops like legalising cannabis would? No! It would mean prescribing it to addicts. Much the same as methadone is prescribed to them today.

How does someone get hooked on heroin? By visiting their health worker, or by visiting their dealer?

How would prescribing heroin to addicts change things?

It would mean a pure, controlled, monitored supply, with clean needles. This would stop deaths by overdosing and massively reduce infection rates. Saving lives. Addicts would be in a totally different environment, one that provided care and offered them a second chance.