Freedom - what is it? And why does it not exist?

[PaliRichard]

What is freedom exactly?

 

Freedom is often confused I think, with liberty. Liberty consists of freedoms that are granted to you from an authority that took those freedoms from you in the first place through force and can again deny them to you at any time. This is not real freedom.

 

Freedom is the ability to do and think everything possible, constrained only by your knowledge that all actions have consequences and your willingness to take responsibility for those consequences. If you act irresponsibly, if you harm others, then others then have the right to limit your freedom.

 

This isn't however, how our freedoms were originally taken from us by authority, our freedoms were taken first because the few wanted to have private access to scarce resources and later because we were found to be economically productive when controlled.

 

Freedom isn't a dream of the future, as many people seem to think, it's a memory of the past and because it's now so far behind us, because things have changed so radically, people can no longer envisage how that level of freedom can apply to them.

 

Is it to be without constraint and able to do whatever you choose? Is it to be able to live as you wish but within the bounderies of the laws of the land we live in?

 

Freedom for me cannot be seperated from responsibility. Laws are unnecessary in a responsible society. If the freedom of others is valued as highly as your own, reasonable justice will always be served.

 

Are there different freedoms? Can the mind be totally free even if the body is not? Can the mind be without suffering even if the body is subject to it?

 

There is positive freedom (freedom to do something) and negative freedom (freedom from something), both can have positive and negative effects within the world.

 

The mind can never be totally free, if it were it would be irresponsible and freedoms would have to be forcefully limited. The mind cannot be without suffering, there will always be self-imposed limitations to human curiosity or if not, rejection by others.

 

Can rules and laws help make us free or are they by default inhibitors of freedom?

 

Only one rule is needed- don't do harm to others. If this rule is followed responsibly and justice is served responsibly all other rules and laws become redundant.

 

Can we train ourselves to be 'free' or is it a matter of circumstance?

 

I think that unless all are free, then no one is free, but freedom is like love, if we were all to become free, then freedom would be redundant. It would lose its specialness.

 

Interesting questions Richard, now beat this ideological dogma out of me

 

I'm more interested that you've answered them in list form. They were put up not as direct questions as such but as triggers to encourage thinking.

 

There's no 'beating' necessary, it's about thinking - in space there is no 'up' or 'down' etc, it should be the same with our own questioning, let it flow where the river takes you rather than trying to dig your own course.

 

I'm going to give you further questions to ponder based on parts of the answers you given. You do not have to answer these questions (although you may if you choose to), they are more for the purpose of getting you to think outside your comfort zone than requiring any actual answer.

 

I will start with your answers then supply a question.

 

1. Liberty consists of freedoms that are granted to you from an authority that took those freedoms from you in the first place through force and can again deny them to you at any time. This is not real freedom.

 

What freedoms are taken by authority?

Can we say for certain that they were taken, or denied by that authority?

How do you quantify the 'force' they used to take them?

Is there any possibility that 'force' could be necessary, in whole or part for the greater good?

If so can it be called 'taken by force?'

What if not 'taking them by force' created a greater chain on freedom?

 

2.Freedom is the ability to do and think everything possible, constrained only by your knowledge that all actions have consequences and your willingness to take responsibility for those consequences.

 

What is the relationship between freedom and free will?

What is your definition of possible here?

Is the knowledge that actions have consequences innate or learned?

 

3.If you act irresponsibly, if you harm others, then others then have the right to limit your freedom.

 

What if the limiting of your freedom in turn means they are acting irresponsibly or harming others?

Who decides what constitutes responsible and irresponsible?

What if harming others is absolutely necessary, in part or whole to create a greater freedom?

 

4.our freedoms were taken first because the few wanted to have private access to scarce resources and later because we were found to be economically productive when controlled.

 

What if those taking our freedoms not doing so, and thus losing the resources meant that both they and us suffered more in turn?

What if that economic productivity becomes the very thing that sustains the whole?

 

5.people can no longer envisage how that level of freedom can apply to them.

 

If people can no longer envisage it how relevant is it?

Is that level of freedom nothing more than survival of the fittest?

Most importantly how do you ensure that if that level of freedom is regained by the whole it remains?

 

6.Laws are unnecessary in a responsible society

 

Who decides what bounderies make up a responsible society?

When such bounderies are agreed how do you enact them?

What exacly is meant by responsible?

Who's idea, or which groups idea, is to be taken as authority of what responsible means?

 

7.reasonable justice will always be served

 

How can there be justice without laws?

Who decides of that justice what constitutes 'reasonable'?

Who's authority is used as the benchmark of that decision?

 

8.The mind can never be totally free, if it were it would be irresponsible and freedoms would have to be forcefully limited.

 

Why would freedom automatically lead to irresponsibility?

What is the difference between the freedom of the mind and the freedom of society?

How can something totally free be forcefully limited?

Who would decide at what point that limit was enforced?

 

9.The mind cannot be without suffering, there will always be self-imposed limitations to human curiosity or if not, rejection by others.

 

What if the self, itself has been transcended (or is unrecognised), who then imposes the limitations?

What if rejection by others is irrelevant?

What if you are alone?

What if all others have also trancended suffering?

What if that rejection is not recognised as such?

 

10.Only one rule is needed- don't do harm to others. If this rule is followed responsibly and justice is served responsibly all other rules and laws become redundant.

 

Who decides what constitutes 'harm'?

Who enforces the rule if it is broken?

What if enforcing the rule causes a level of harm in itself?

If enforcing the rule causes harm, what level of harm is acceptable in enforcing it?

Who decides what is responsible serving of the justice?

What if serving the justice requires other laws to come into play?

 

11.I think that unless all are free, then no one is free, but freedom is like love, if we were all to become free, then freedom would be redundant. It would lose its specialness.

 

If it becomes redundant how is it recognised?

If it can't be recognised how can we crave it?

Why can't one be free without all being free?

If all are free and one stops being free, does that by default bind everyone else?

 

I'm sorry if there are some repetitions, I've literally responded point by point and in each case the questions I ask, even if they are repeated, may require totally different answers.

 

I hope you have fun with it and I hope it stimulates some difficulty, and consequently, some insperation in you

[Cavegirl]

I'm more interested that you've answered them in list form. They were put up not as direct questions as such but as triggers to encourage thinking.

 

There's no 'beating' necessary, it's about thinking - in space there is no 'up' or 'down' etc, it should be the same with our own questioning, let it flow where the river takes you rather than trying to dig your own course.

 

I'm going to give you further questions to ponder based on parts of the answers you given. You do not have to answer these questions (although you may if you choose to), they are more for the purpose of getting you to think outside your comfort zone than requiring any actual answer.

...

 

I'm sorry if there are some repetitions, I've literally responded point by point and in each case the questions I ask, even if they are repeated, may require totally different answers.

 

I hope you have fun with it and I hope it stimulates some difficulty, and consequently, some insperation in you

 

Richard, this is really awesome stuff and thankyou for putting your time and effort into it!!

 

Obviously I'm going to need some time to work through all of this, but I'll try to get back to you in a few days with any initial thoughts/ progress I come up with. I can tell that once I've started grappling this properly it's going to have a wide-ranging effect on my thinking

[PaliRichard]

Richard, this is really awesome stuff and thankyou for putting your time and effort into it!!

 

Obviously I'm going to need some time to work through all of this, but I'll try to get back to you in a few days with any initial thoughts/ progress I come up with. I can tell that once I've started grappling this properly it's going to have a wide-ranging effect on my thinking

 

Don't think of it in terms of progress - that's too clinical and coffee shop for me - It is a fight, like I said to you on the other thread it's grabbing the bull by the horns and grappling until you're exhausted - ask questions, not necessarily those I gave to you, but you're own, if you think you've got an answer question the answer and keep going until you are genuinly exhausted of the question.

 

You made an interesting point the other day when you referenced (I forget exactly what it was off the top of my head) philosophy in everyday life - that's exactly right, take all questions, all quandries, all dilemmas you come across in life whether they are major or minor and grapple with them (that few days you spend at the beginning will develop over time to looking at all questions from every angle in a matter of seconds - but it takes serious questioning to get it that refined)

 

I'm not saying you will answer the questions (in fact if you're questioning to a sufficiant enough level you shouldn't be getting satisfactory answers until you are getting to the minute subtleties - and even then only rarely) but what you will do is develop a much better understanding of yourself, the way we delude ourself each and every day to try to satisfy what western Psychology would probably term the ego, and you will certainly be able to solve problems and make decisions much, much faster because you will have an all round 'outside the box' understanding of how your mind works.

 

Finally thank you for the kind words but the time and effort, on my part at least (although my wife would probably disagree - she did philosophy at university and hated it when I kept tripping her up with things that she couldn't grasp because she hadn't been 'taught' it - my take on philosophy comes from being alive and bothering to ask questions and not being satisfied with the answers that I was coming up with - it seems to me that what I call coffe shop philosophy is far too easily satisfied with its own self congratulation) the time and effort is not a chore, it is a pleasure.

 

Keep pushing, get frustrated, fight the bull, be water and most importantly enjoy the whole thing - even when you're that frustrated that you can't find the answer that you're at breaking point.

 

Just as an afterthought I'm really glad I started talking to you because these are possibly the most natural feeling posts I've ever made on this forum so I owe you a huge debt of gratitude.

[Cavegirl]

Don't think of it in terms of progress - that's too clinical and coffee shop for me - It is a fight, like I said to you on the other thread it's grabbing the bull by the horns and grappling until you're exhausted - ask questions, not necessarily those I gave to you, but you're own, if you think you've got an answer question the answer and keep going until you are genuinly exhausted of the question.

 

You made an interesting point the other day when you referenced (I forget exactly what it was off the top of my head) philosophy in everyday life - that's exactly right, take all questions, all quandries, all dilemmas you come across in life whether they are major or minor and grapple with them (that few days you spend at the beginning will develop over time to looking at all questions from every angle in a matter of seconds - but it takes serious questioning to get it that refined)

 

I'm not saying you will answer the questions (in fact if you're questioning to a sufficiant enough level you shouldn't be getting satisfactory answers until you are getting to the minute subtleties - and even then only rarely) but what you will do is develop a much better understanding of yourself, the way we delude ourself each and every day to try to satisfy what western Psychology would probably term the ego, and you will certainly be able to solve problems and make decisions much, much faster because you will have an all round 'outside the box' understanding of how your mind works.

 

Finally thank you for the kind words but the time and effort, on my part at least (although my wife would probably disagree - she did philosophy at university and hated it when I kept tripping her up with things that she couldn't grasp because she hadn't been 'taught' it - my take on philosophy comes from being alive and bothering to ask questions and not being satisfied with the answers that I was coming up with - it seems to me that what I call coffe shop philosophy is far too easily satisfied with its own self congratulation) the time and effort is not a chore, it is a pleasure.

 

Keep pushing, get frustrated, fight the bull, be water and most importantly enjoy the whole thing - even when you're that frustrated that you can't find the answer that you're at breaking point.

 

Just as an afterthought I'm really glad I started talking to you because these are possibly the most natural feeling posts I've ever made on this forum so I owe you a huge debt of gratitude.

 

I think I'm ready to start forming some of the wide-ranging (everything from childhood to prison to war to religion) thoughts I've had into some kind of answer to the questions you set.

 

Freedom, in part at least, seems to be a matter of having faith in ourselves.

 

I think we've mistakenly put our faith in god and that we still do as a society to a large extent- even a society composed mostly of atheists. The last time we faced mass fear and anxiety in society we used a very Christian answer to alleviate that fear. Devoid of god, we replaced the comforting notion of god with mass surveillance- an ever present feeling that someone is watching over you and cares about what happens to you. It was an answer to a problem that was quite specific to an ex-Christian country I think (if we were still a Christian country we wouldn't have needed to feel watched over). I want us to have the freedom of thought to not have to turn to these irrational mechanisms during times of fear and anxiety, to simply have faith in ourselves and others. To perhaps be philosophical enough to realise that bad things can happen to some (even to us), but that there doesn't need to be a knee-jerk reaction to them that diminishes freedom for everyone.

 

I think we've also put faith in biology/ nature, that our genetic code and / or environment determines who we are, that there is only a very limited free will. However, I think it's possible to transcend this just as we have transcended the natural world.

 

So freedom is not about gaining control over life, it's not about defering control elsewhere, it's about learning to let go of things that you can't control and having the faith in yourself to shape those things that you can control into what you want them to be.

 

Perhaps I can go further with this, I'm going to try. I'm certainly going to try applying it.

 

Is this similar to your philosophy of freedom? I'm interested in how you would have answered the original questions that you set.

[PaliRichard]

Is this similar to your philosophy of freedom? I'm interested in how you would have answered the original questions that you set.

 

I haven't answered them, not yet anyway, I'm still wrestling with the bull.

 

Two things regarding your answer stand out to me though.

 

I think we've also put faith in biology/ nature, that our genetic code and / or environment determines who we are, that there is only a very limited free will. However, I think it's possible to transcend this just as we have transcended the natural world[/Quote]

 

First some questions for you to have a think about (again they do not require answers), do you think we have trancended the natural world? Why do you think this?

 

I'm going to bring Buddhism in here, only because your thoughts stand out here and it was Buddhist philosophy that got us here to start with.

 

The bold bit.

 

The Buddhist belief is that we are very fortunate to be born as human beings because they are the only animals that have the cognitive ability to fully comprehend their dilemma.

 

and

 

So freedom is not about gaining control over life, it's not about defering control elsewhere, it's about learning to let go of things that you can't control and having the faith in yourself to shape those things that you can control into what you want them to be[/Quote]

 

Again the bold part.

 

This is one of the central aspects of Buddhism.

 

Now I'm very interested into why a large part of your answer seems to match Buddhist thought - interestingly enough, as far as I've got with certain questions (though not necessarily this one), on a purely philosophical level I'm not sure my leanings do.

 

Now there is some food for thought.

 

 

Perhaps I can go further with this[/Quote]

 

I'm also certain you can. I still think you're limiting yourself, regardless of how much I 'like' your answer, it seems too simple, I think you may still have a toe or two stood in the box, climb out.

 

I'm going to try. I'm certainly going to try applying it[/Quote]

 

Good, experimentation is excellent - but remember there is no right or wrong answer, there is merely what works for you and what doesn't - if anything becomes an ideal it's more than likely wrong, even if it 'works' it may only be relative. Just keep pushing yourself beyond what you 'think' you are capable of - question the answers, don't seek to answer the questions.

[Cavegirl]

I haven't answered them, not yet anyway, I'm still wrestling with the bull.

 

Two things regarding your answer stand out to me though.

 

 

 

First some questions for you to have a think about (again they do not require answers), do you think we have trancended the natural world? Why do you think this?

 

I'm going to bring Buddhism in here, only because your thoughts stand out here and it was Buddhist philosophy that got us here to start with.

 

The bold bit.

 

The Buddhist belief is that we are very fortunate to be born as human beings because they are the only animals that have the cognitive ability to fully comprehend their dilemma.

 

and

 

 

 

Again the bold part.

 

This is one of the central aspects of Buddhism.

 

Now I'm very interested into why a large part of your answer seems to match Buddhist thought - interestingly enough, as far as I've got with certain questions (though not necessarily this one), on a purely philosophical level I'm not sure my leanings do.

 

Now there is some food for thought.

 

 

 

 

I'm also certain you can. I still think you're limiting yourself, regardless of how much I 'like' your answer, it seems too simple, I think you may still have a toe or two stood in the box, climb out.

 

 

 

Good, experimentation is excellent - but remember there is no right or wrong answer, there is merely what works for you and what doesn't - if anything becomes an ideal it's more than likely wrong, even if it 'works' it may only be relative. Just keep pushing yourself beyond what you 'think' you are capable of - question the answers, don't seek to answer the questions.

 

I wanted to go into more detail regarding how I reached that final summary line about freedom, but I'm grabbing time during baby naps at the moment and I was called away so I had to rush it a bit.

 

The shaping things ourselves part of the philosophy came from something I learned a little bit about years ago at University. It was called agency theory- the idea that people in the past were not just actors on a stage, that they wrote the script- they were not determined by external factors by their actions.

 

Once I remembered this idea it seemed to slot nicely into other thoughts I was having and I was able to apply it to the present. I had no idea it was similar to Buddhist philosophy, but it seems to be useful for describing human intentions and actions and it helped me to develop my thoughts about freedom.

[EzekielWheel]

Freedom only exists if you become a law student. You don't need to go to Universe City to get a degree, you just need the internet and a brain.

 

For example here is some legislation most of you are not aware of.

 

The local Government Act 1888, Section 79 Subsection 2.

 

Quote "All duties and liabilities of the inhabitants of a county shall become the duties and liabilities of the council of such a county".

 

So send your bills to the council, they can pay them.

 

Investigate and research this yourself.

 

Namaste.