Sheffield 'Founding' Families

[mrsmills]

Thank you. That is truly the only time land law has been of any use to me and of interest to anyone else! If you want to know more any decent land law text book or legal history textbook would run through it, IM me if you want some suggestions as to which.

 

As a little P.S. it's interesting to note that the estates which could no longer be created after the Law of Property Act 1925 such as fee-tails do still exist and still tie up large areas of land as they were particularly favoured by the landed classes who had an eye for posterity. These various titles only give the 'owner' the right to occupy the land for their lifetime, holding it on trust for future generations but lacking capacity to sell it or break it up. Then when their heir inherits they are incumbered in the same way, keeping land and the power, income and value that attaches to it in the family indefinitely and ensuring succession down the family line as failure to produce an heir would effectively lead to a loss of the estate (because the trust would fail for want of a beneficiary). I don't have the text to hand but I believe something like 5-8% of land in England (far more in Scotland) is tied up in this way, I would suspect that a great deal of the land historically owned by the Cavendish family, for example and almost certainly the main Chatworth Estate is tied up in this manner, but that is pure speculation.

[Greybeard]

Thank you. I've always thought my Dad (to the twelfth power) married into the wrong family!!

 

Well you never know....the one thing the medieval aristocracy were very free with was their wild oats.

[Greybeard]

I believe a lot of the 19th. and early 20th. century terraced property in Sheffield remains in leasehold to the old landed families. Most of it probably to the Norfolk estate on 999 year lease.

 

When I lived in S5 I paid an annual ground rent to the heris of Mark Firth...£1.50 a year I think it was. I believe that leaseholders have the legal right to buy the freehold of their property, but with a term of 999 years many don't bother.

[mrsmills]

Very often they have the option, but it depends on the terms of the lease, at the end of the day it is just a specialised contract and so can contain to that effect if desired. I believe in Scotland, legislation has given rights to leaseholders to purchase the reversionary interest and thus become freeholders but I am not aware of that south of the border.

 

It's this sort of thing that makes this really interesting, as there are people out there, heirs of Firth, etc. who are still living off these peppercorn rents and of course the huge sums that would have been paid to allow development in the first place. Where are you all? It's interesting if you ever look at a really lnog lease and work out what the rent will be at the end of it, I remember doing it on a flat once and the ground rent was something like £100, at the end of 999 year lease it would increase to something like £900,000,000,000 p.a. - damn inflation!

[Albert T Smith]

In 1961 or 62, I bought the lease hold of my home on Archer Road, Sheffield.

At the time the price was to be agreed and fixed between Ten to Fifteen times the leasehold rent. If you could not agree with the freeholder you had the right to have it fixed at a tribunal.

 

Some years later I bought the lease hold at Springfield Ave under the same conditions. This came about because basically the freeholder would not allow me to build a garage unless I agreed to pay a re-negotiated leasehold.

 

If this law is still in existence or the Conservative Government altered it after 1980

I would like to know, especially the reason for alteration.

[mrsmills]

We're currently moving buildings, everything is on boxes, I'll look into when I get a moment.

[Albert T Smith]

Very often they have the option, but it depends on the terms of the lease, at the end of the day it is just a specialised contract and so can contain to that effect if desired. I believe in Scotland, legislation has given rights to leaseholders to purchase the reversionary interest and thus become freeholders but I am not aware of that south of the border.

 

It's this sort of thing that makes this really interesting, as there are people out there, heirs of Firth, etc. who are still living off these peppercorn rents and of course the huge sums that would have been paid to allow development in the first place. Where are you all? It's interesting if you ever look at a really lnog lease and work out what the rent will be at the end of it, I remember doing it on a flat once and the ground rent was something like £100, at the end of 999 year lease it would increase to something like £900,000,000,000 p.a. - damn inflation!

 

But the leasehold of £100 would be fixed. After 999 years what would £100 be worth?

It is the conditions enshrined in the land deed that is where the interest should be focused.

[Albert T Smith]

We're currently moving buildings, everything is on boxes, I'll look into when I get a moment.

 

Are you moving? If so where?

[mrsmills]

Oh sorry, work is moving, not me personally (most of my books are at work and thus currently all packed up) to different accommodation within the University, our current site is in a poor state of repair and we've hugely outgrown it, it is also out on a limb so to speak and not inkeeping with the trend to try to centralise the University estate. We're moving to nicer, currently vacant premises close to the Arts Tower. I am then moving to a different institution altogether in February.

[Albert T Smith]

I've noted the nice places down Encliffe Vale Crescent that are now being or have been built.