Fivetide Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 If an animal is raised in reasonable conditions and surroundings, and its end comes via a painless (or at least rapid and panic-free) method of despatch, then all is well. Yes, I totally agree (and can I add that I'd also add 'As long as the animal species used wasn't endangered'). Oh of course. Would you skin a human and wear their pelt in that case? After all, we are "just an animal, the working sum of lots of proteins and some water" and are hardly in danger of dying out are we? We are able to discern the difference between our own species and others, and have been making judgements about the relative values of the different species' lives since we first walked the Earth. That difference/judgement ability is entirely natural. Some people are just so incredibly selfish. I truly don't understand how anyone can not have the suffering of the battery hen/chinchilla they are eating/wearing on their conscience. The suffering of a battery hen/chinchilla doesn't have any impact on my conscience, thank you very much... Even if I caused their suffering and especially if that suffering was for a decent reason. They're just 'Dumb animals' (and having kept chickens I've learned to loathe them appropriately). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discodown Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 What do they get put through? In the developing world, there is and will continue to be animal cruelty, which is wrong but cannot be stopped overnight. In our western world, there are stringent regulations which do not permit us to be cruel to animals. A mink is raised, fed well, kept healthy, probably allowed to have some jiggy-jiggy with other mink, then humanely despatched. What is disgraceful about that? It is naive to judge the fur industry in the developed world based on conditions you may have seen in alarmist videos from the third world. I agree with you to a point. I just find that raising and killing an animal solely for vanity is a bit distasteful. Same as I find foie gras unnecessary and distasteful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jabberwocky Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 Its a given that we as a species killed, ate and wore the skins of animals. As we evolved and developed we found more efficient ways of killing, eating and skinning these animals. That was down to our huge brain, we learned to kill, cook, and skin in ways that no other animal could even comprehend and its perfectly natural of us to do this, we`re predators to the end. The thing is, we can also use our huge brain to create artificial "Skins" to wear and not doing that is a waste of our potential. Fake fur is just as good as the real thing, but... what are the effects on the environment when making fake furs and even leathers? Theyre plastics arent they? Arent these chemicals bad for the Earth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macduff Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 I agree with you to a point. I just find that raising and killing an animal solely for vanity is a bit distasteful. Same as I find foie gras unnecessary and distasteful I can understand why some people have a balanced view which limits their concern to cases where an animal is bred purely for its pelt as a decorative adornment, but again, as long as the animal is kept in good conditions and has a comfortable existance, what is the problem? If we object to the principle that a creature was created (through a captive breeding programme) just to mature and become a coat, what is the actual objection? Is it simply the moral principle of the creatures life having nothing but a cosmetic purpose? I\'d be happier, for example, for a mink to be deliberately bred, raised and well treated before being put down just for its pelt, than for a goat to have a hard life before being slaughtered for food. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LitleMermaid Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 The suffering of a battery hen/chinchilla doesn't have any impact on my conscience, thank you very much... Even if I caused their suffering and especially if that suffering was for a decent reason. They're just 'Dumb animals' (and having kept chickens I've learned to loathe them appropriately). "Decent reason"? For your own pleasure and vanity? The same pleasure which could be devired from enitrely ethical sources? Could you eprsonally tell the difference betwen rreal and fake fur? If not, then WHAT DIFFERENCE does it make to you to make a compassionate choice? Why support needless suffering? Mmm - so you think it’s selfish of us to eat something that’s lower in the food chain. An interesting way to look at life, that’s for sure. Do you really think chickens are bright enough to suffer all that much? They’re just chickens after all, and as a species they are doubly unfortunate in that they taste good and they can’t fly. As for skinning humans, why not? I don’t see human beings as being anything special. Some are deeply noble, others are of less value than a chicken (personal view again). It's not just being "lower in the foodchain" though is it? It's the way animals are treated just because they are "lower down". And yes I DO think chickens are bright enough to suffer that much. I suggest you take a look at the ex-battery thread in the pet section. And you can say what you like about skinning humans, we both know in practice you wouldn't be so smug;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jessica23 Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 Oh, it's a tricky one, this animal rights issue. I read a bit of Peter Singer at uni, and very interesting it was too. I can be an all or nothing kind of person, which is why I've never been a vegetarian. I love eating meat, so the only justification for me turning veggie would be on animal rights grounds...and then I'd have to be a vegan...and eventually I'd have to be a Jain...I just don't have the energy, frankly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macduff Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 but... what are the effects on the environment when making fake furs and even leathers? Theyre plastics arent they? Arent these chemicals bad for the Earth?Veeeery interesting - and chemical factories don\'t make poo which can help feed the plants, while I suspect chinchillas do. As an aside, some (many) years ago, my mother came back from holiday with some rather cozy fur-lined gloves, from somewhere like Lanzarotte I think, but not sure. They were a soft leather with very soft fur inside - ever so comfy. She thought they might have been goat, which I challenged on two points. First, goat hair is very coarse - she agreed. Second, I can\'t remember ever coming across a ginger tabby goat. She decided after that pont that she didn\'t want them any more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Macduff Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 It\'s not just being \"lower in the foodchain\" though is it? It\'s the way animals are treated just because they are \"lower down\". But in this country they aren\'t all that badly treated. if you must know, I buy barn eggs rather than normal factory, though I won\'t pay the extra for so-called free range or organic. And you can say what you like about skinning humans, we both know in practice you wouldn\'t be so smug;) I\'m not sure what you mean here - I can assure you I don\'t have an issue with people coming to a grisly end, that is just part of life (as long as it\'s not somebody I know or care about). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fivetide Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 "Decent reason"? For your own pleasure and vanity? The same pleasure which could be devired from enitrely ethical sources? Could you eprsonally tell the difference betwen rreal and fake fur? If not, then WHAT DIFFERENCE does it make to you to make a compassionate choice? Why support needless suffering? Yes, that's a decent reason. We eat chicken and eggs out of choice for the taste, when there are plenty of other protein sources. Stuff em, they're just animals. I wouldn't agree that unecessary suffering should be inflicted (pain etc) but if they're just bred for fur and killed in a decently quick manner, then what is there to complain about? It's not just being "lower in the foodchain" though is it? It's the way animals are treated just because they are "lower down". And yes I DO think chickens are bright enough to suffer that much. I suggest you take a look at the ex-battery thread in the pet section. And you can say what you like about skinning humans, we both know in practice you wouldn't be so smug;) I wouldn't agree with skinning humans, they're my own species. As for the lower animals, I don't think that skinning the poor buggers alive is being defended. Just breeding them for their fur. Nowt wrong with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LitleMermaid Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 But in this country they aren\'t all that badly treated. if you must know, I buy barn eggs rather than normal factory, though I won\'t pay the extra for so-called free range or organic. I never enquired as to what eggs you buy. Although if you must know, I, without exception, buy organic. I\'m not sure what you mean here - I can assure you I don\'t have an issue with people coming to a grisly end, that is just part of life (as long as it\'s not somebody I know or care about). Selfish, selfish, selfish! It's ok for hideous things to happen so long as it's not on your doorstep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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