plekhanov Posted September 19, 2008 Author Share Posted September 19, 2008 Hardly. Before C20th developments they would have needed to have heterosexual relations to achieve this. Because no lesbian in history could possibly have slept with a man in the hopes of getting pregnant could they, no lesbian ever raised a child after being raped, or had children after being pressured by societal conventions into an unwanted and doomed heterosexual marriage… I think you'll find I didn't actually have this discussion. Additionally, it's not about what I consider natural. What I described is natural. On what grounds do you make the claim that the ‘nuclear family’ with a mother, father and children is the ‘natural family unit’? If as you claim it’s ‘natural’ then why is it such a comparatively recent development in our own society and far from universal both around the word today and throughout human history? It is not as you state a situation where "we suddenly turn round and try to impose a uniform structure for the family unit". A mother, father and their children is not a new concept. I never said it was, I just said it wasn’t the only existing or acceptable concept. If people wish to set up in some different variation of a family unit that is their choice. Nobody is preventing them. NF4J are attacking that choice thought aren’t they and you are supporting that unnecessary, petty, cruel attack. What makes little sense is when people try to twist a natural situation into some sort of abnomal societal construct. What makes absolutely no sense is someone sitting in front of a computer typing away complaining about other people doing unnatural things. As I said already, the idea of the "lesbo-dad" may be seen by FNF as another marginalisation of the father's role child rearing. In what way? How does lesbians having children with donated sperm in any way marginalise a single father’s role in rearing his children? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonofAna Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 Just access rights? Nah! Fathers for Justice need lots more than that to aim for. If you think that the law is fair as long as it says a father can have weekend visits with his child and that is it - then you really are misguided. If I divorce from my wife then why should she automatically get residency of the child/ren? Why should I have to fight for my rights as the child/rens father? It is still the case that in English Courts a mother has automatically got more rights concerning any children, and that is regardless of the mother's mental or physical ability to raise those children. How old are you? And where are you from Deerobe. Cos I am pretty old and although gays were shunned in the past I do not recall homosexuality being illegal. I do not understand where you dreampt up the scenario of a gay man marrying a lesbian woman etc etc etc. Was this, in your reality, more often the case than a gay man marrying a non-gay woman and vice versa? Dragon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deerobe Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 I'd like to see your proof on that. Which species have you found where the child does not have both male and female input as opposed to lesbian/gay? There are many instances where children are raised by the mother - but there is still involvement from the father. And in some species the father is the one left holding the babies while the mother does a runner, but I am referring particularly to lesbian and gay animal upbringings - so I shall wait for your huge reference list on this. I think my argument stands pretty fine except for in your own mind where everything has to fit into the lovely niches you have sorted for them. Natural = Father, Mother, Child Dragon Gosh you made me laugh with this post. So, let's start with the felines. In the case of some large cats mothers will keep the offspring away from the males in case the males eat them. Spiders are another example, one species eats the male after mating so there is no chance of him being around to help with childcare. Many other species may appear to live in a community but the reality is that the females bring up the offspring while the males lounge around doing sod all. Many human fathers behave in a similar way and many are far worse. I would ask you this... is it better for a child to grow up in a household where the father is a wife beating alcoholic; where that child has to witness his or her mother being beaten on a regular basis... or within a loving home environment with people who care for each other regardless of gender? My sense is that you have led a rather sheltered existence. You seem to be in a situation of viewing family life through rose tinted glasses having not encountered the harsher side of life. Well sadly life is not a fairy tale where we all go off into the sunset hand in hand. Nurturing = no anger, no shouting, no drunken behaviour, adults who project a good behavioural model, lots of love, lots of encouragement. Any adults can build a loving home environment for children and nurture them to adulthood. If normal = Mother, Father and Child without consideration of behaviours then you are welcome to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deerobe Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 How old are you? And where are you from Deerobe. Cos I am pretty old and although gays were shunned in the past I do not recall homosexuality being illegal. I do not understand where you dreampt up the scenario of a gay man marrying a lesbian woman etc etc etc. Was this, in your reality, more often the case than a gay man marrying a non-gay woman and vice versa? Dragon You are plainly not old enough Dragon and 30 seconds on Google would have turned up the evidence. Gay sex was legalised in 1967. 1960: More than 1,000 people attend the first public meeting of the Homosexual Law Reform Society 1960: Private Members Bill to reform laws on homosexuality defeated 215 to 101 in the Commons 1961: Influential film Victim released starring Dirk Bogarde as a gay barrister being blackmailed over his sexuality 1962: MI6 use a gay honeytrap to catch John Vassal passing state secrets to the Russians 1963: The Sunday Pictorial carries 'How to Spot a Homo' article: "They are everywhere, they can be anybody" 1964: The Daily Telegraph publishes editorial criticising anti-homosexual laws 1964: Formation of North West Homosexual Law Reform Committee (later Campaign for Homosexual Equality) - the first grassroots gay rights organisation in Britain 1965: Lesbian support group Kenric is set up in London 1966: Gay contact ads published for first time in International Times magazine. It is later prosecuted 1967: Sexual Offences Bill passed, legalising gay sex in private for consenting adults over the age of 21 1968: Judy Garland appears at Talk of the Town in London attracting a large gay audience 1969: Modern gay rights movement born following the Stonewall Riots in New York City PS: Oscar Wilde and other notable englishmen served time in prison after being successfully prosecuted for homosexuality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jessica23 Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 Cos I am pretty old and although gays were shunned in the past I do not recall homosexuality being illegal. It was legalised in 1967, as far as I remember. ETA: Beat me to it, Deerobe, with a much fuller post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonofAna Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 Gosh you made me laugh with this post. So, let's start with the felines. In the case of some large cats mothers will keep the offspring away from the males in case the males eat them. Spiders are another example, one species eats the male after mating so there is no chance of him being around to help with childcare. Many other species may appear to live in a community but the reality is that the females bring up the offspring while the males lounge around doing sod all. Many human fathers behave in a similar way and many are far worse. Gosh you make me laugh with this post also. The case of the big cats - you need to check your nature resources. It is very rare for a male big cat to injure its young. There are occassions where, for instance, a male lion will kill off the cubs of a pride when it takes over, but this is not always the case. Spiders - the female does sometimes eat the male, but she then does not run off to set up home with some other lesbian spider. Take my comments in context, otherwise we just go round and round in circles. Not sure where you get the idea that the males of most species just hang around doing nothing at all. I know there are some penguins where the male and female take it in turns to sit on the egg while the other parent goes for food. There are many other instances like this. And I still have not found one instance of any gay or lesbian animal setting up a family home. I would ask you this... is it better for a child to grow up in a household where the father is a wife beating alcoholic; where that child has to witness his or her mother being beaten on a regular basis... or within a loving home environment with people who care for each other regardless of gender? This is just nonsense as it is nothing to do with the subject at hand. Gay men and Lesboans are just as likely to suffer alcohol induced violence as straight couples. My sense is that you have led a rather sheltered existence. You seem to be in a situation of viewing family life through rose tinted glasses having not encountered the harsher side of life. Well sadly life is not a fairy tale where we all go off into the sunset hand in hand. You do not know me or anything about my life. Let's not get personal eh? And I am not about to go crying about the kind of upbringing I had to the likes of you. If normal = Mother, Father and Child without consideration of behaviours then you are welcome to it. It seems that you limit this consideration of behaviours to just Mother, Father, Child relationships. Yet as I have already said - violence, disputes, upsets are just as likely to occur in gay/lesbian relationships. Your animosity towards men seems to blind you to a few facts - such as husband abuse is on the increase; alcohol induced violence seems to be increasing in the female of the species rather than the male (based on television programs admittedly - where the police in England have to sort out the drunks from nightclubs). And though you may find this difficult to believe - there are many fathers out there who can provide a loving caring environment for their children. Dragon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonofAna Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 You are plainly not old enough Dragon and 30 seconds on Google would have turned up the evidence. Gay sex was legalised in 1967. 1960: More than 1,000 people attend the first public meeting of the Homosexual Law Reform Society 1960: Private Members Bill to reform laws on homosexuality defeated 215 to 101 in the Commons 1961: Influential film Victim released starring Dirk Bogarde as a gay barrister being blackmailed over his sexuality 1962: MI6 use a gay honeytrap to catch John Vassal passing state secrets to the Russians 1963: The Sunday Pictorial carries 'How to Spot a Homo' article: "They are everywhere, they can be anybody" 1964: The Daily Telegraph publishes editorial criticising anti-homosexual laws 1964: Formation of North West Homosexual Law Reform Committee (later Campaign for Homosexual Equality) - the first grassroots gay rights organisation in Britain 1965: Lesbian support group Kenric is set up in London 1966: Gay contact ads published for first time in International Times magazine. It is later prosecuted 1967: Sexual Offences Bill passed, legalising gay sex in private for consenting adults over the age of 21 1968: Judy Garland appears at Talk of the Town in London attracting a large gay audience 1969: Modern gay rights movement born following the Stonewall Riots in New York City PS: Oscar Wilde and other notable englishmen served time in prison after being successfully prosecuted for homosexuality. You are right - I am not that old So my point still stands - I have no recollection of homosexuality being illegal when I was a child Does the queen still send 100th Birthday anniversary cards out? Dragon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deerobe Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 How old are you? And where are you from Deerobe. Cos I am pretty old and although gays were shunned in the past I do not recall homosexuality being illegal. I do not understand where you dreampt up the scenario of a gay man marrying a lesbian woman etc etc etc. Was this, in your reality, more often the case than a gay man marrying a non-gay woman and vice versa? Dragon I am from London and this did happen. However yes gay men did also marry hetrosexual women and how happy do you think they were? Not very I can tell you. I don't think you needed to be rude and so personal. Just because I do not subscribe to your rose tinted view of a family does not give you the right to insult me. I am clearly older and more experienced in life than you are and also able to do my homework in researching my subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deerobe Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 You are right - I am not that old So my point still stands - I have no recollection of homosexuality being illegal when I was a child Does the queen still send 100th Birthday anniversary cards out? Dragon Yes she does dear... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jessica23 Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 You are right - I am not that old So my point still stands - I have no recollection of homosexuality being illegal when I was a child Does the queen still send 100th Birthday anniversary cards out? Dragon Just because Deerobe remembers it during her lifetime doesn't make him/her incredibly old. I'm 26 and my parents, my grandparents, my aunts and uncles and most of the adults I would have come into contact with as a child would have remembered homosexuality being illegal. Not one of them saw fit to tell me it was unnatural, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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