Migrant crime toll rising

[ukdobby]

Our goverment offer it, So whats the big deal in them accepting the offers?

we didnt complain too much when we got indians/african to do all our dirty work many moons ago did we?

 

Think the key word is WORK,not many of us don't object to people who work,itd the scrounging toerags who don't work gets our backs up.

[LordChaverly]

Aren't you confusing the overall crime rate with the prison population? Since most crimes don't attract a custodial sentence, surely your argument is skewed?

 

Around 1 in 10 prisoners is thought to be ex-services, usually army. More than 70% of the prison population is thought to have 2 or more diagnoses of mental illness. The prison population just isn't representative of the general population.

 

Which doesn't mean that immigration and crime is necessarily a non-issue, but let's keep it in proportion, eh? And this really is weak journalism, but then what would you expect from the Sheffield Star?

 

Well my dear Teafan, you are of course right that all statistics are open to question and interpretation. However, in my view the disproportionate number of foreigners in British jails is a significant indicator of the greater propensity of immigrants to these shores to commit serious criminal acts (the ones the indigenous population are more likely to be concerned about, because those in jail are more likely to be either guilty of serious crimes or are repeat offenders). Now I am sure if I had time I could add riders to these figures, or even find some way of explaining them away, but even so I think it likely that the argument I was rebutting (i.e. that immigrants commit crimes on a pro rata basis with the indigenous population) will stay rebutted. As for your points about soldiers and the mentally ill, surely these support the point I was making rather than undermine it - or have I missed something?

[TeaFan]

Well my dear Teafan, you are of course right that all statistics are open to question and interpretation. However, in my view the disproportionate number of foreigners in British jails is a significant indicator of the greater propensity of immigrants to these shores to commit serious criminal acts (the ones the indigenous population are more likely to be concerned about, because those in jail are more likely to be either guilty of serious crimes or are repeat offenders). Now I am sure if I had time I could add riders to these figures, or even find some way of explaining them away, but even so I think it likely that the argument I was rebutting (i.e. that immigrants commit crimes on a pro rata basis with the indigenous population) will stay rebutted. As for your points about soldiers and the mentally ill, surely these support the point I was making rather than undermine it - or have I missed something?

 

Possibly. My point was that you can't make reliable inferences about the general population by looking at the prison population. Otherwise 10% of us would be ex-army, and 70% of us would have significant mental health problems.

[Cyclone]

LC - who suggested that immigrants commit crimes on a pro rata basis with the indigents? Maybe I missed it, maybe it was just a well constructed straw man, please clarify.

[LordChaverly]

LC - who suggested that immigrants commit crimes on a pro rata basis with the indigents? Maybe I missed it, maybe it was just a well constructed straw man, please clarify.

 

I am happy to clarify. See post 11 on this thread by Vulcan B2 and my reply (post 12).

[LordChaverly]

Possibly. My point was that you can't make reliable inferences about the general population by looking at the prison population. Otherwise 10% of us would be ex-army, and 70% of us would have significant mental health problems.

 

Forgive me Teafan, but I am having difficulty in understanding the logic of your argument here. What these figures show is that foreigners, the mentally ill and ex-servicemen all have an above-average propensity to end up in jail. The inference I make from this in relation to these three groups is that they all have a greater than average propensity to engage in criminal acts which are deemed serious enough to warrant incarceration.

 

Now, of course, there could be other explanations, i.e. that these three groups merely have an above-average propensity to get caught, but I personally don't find this argument particularly convincing. It is also quite possible (indeed even probable) that there are different reasons for the criminal propensities of these groups, but none of this in my view undermines the central fact that foreigners have an above average propensity to engage in serious criminal behaviour.

[TeaFan]

What would be useful to know is whether people born abroad are generally more likely to commit crimes than people born here, or whether it's a case of serious, organised crime merchants taking advantage of freedom of movement in the EU.

 

The prison stats quoted by Lord Chaverley (link please?) are certainly worrying, but it is possible that this reflects organised crime going pan-European rather than a generally higher offending rate for the wider migrant community.

 

It would also be useful to know by which route these people in prison arrived in the UK, as there are a number of possible ways; freedom of entry to EU nationals, student visas, the asylum route, the more tightly-controlled non-EU migration, plus illegal entry. That would give a much better picture of what is happening and what can be done about it.

[Cyclone]

Of course, with the influx of immigrants the crime rate is bound to go up pro rata

 

Is not the same as saying that immigrants commit crimes at the same level as the indigents... Or at least that's not how I read it.

 

Edit - to answer some of Teafans points.

Immigrants are far more likely to be young and male, people committing crime tend to be young and male as well (ex servicemen also tend to be male, young I'm not so sure).

If we compare the crime rate amongst immigrants to the entire indigent population it will obviously be much higher.

If we compare it to the a representative demographic, well, that would be more interesting and useful data. What would be really really interesting, would be if we could find some sort of common factor that would allow the likely criminal immigrants to be denied entry.

 

It might also be worth considering the proportions of legal and illegal immigrants jailed compared to the proportions present in the country.

If the vast majority are illegals then to continue to try to stop illegal immigration is the obvious answer as you can't filter out people who never apply for entry.

[Vulcan B2]

"migrant crime toll rising" is the headline, the article explains that clearly.

 

The Star never explains anything clearly. It gives no indications of numbers involved or any real statistics to back up the story. As usual that rag induces hate. I'm not defending immigrants at all, and those who break the law should be punished, but stories like this incite hate against immigrants as a whole, not just the law breaking minority.

[LordChaverly]

Is not the same as saying that immigrants commit crimes at the same level as the indigents... Or at least that's not how I read it.

 

Edit - to answer some of Teafans points.

Immigrants are far more likely to be young and male, people committing crime tend to be young and male as well (ex servicemen also tend to be male, young I'm not so sure).

If we compare the crime rate amongst immigrants to the entire indigent population it will obviously be much higher.

If we compare it to the a representative demographic, well, that would be more interesting and useful data. What would be really really interesting, would be if we could find some sort of common factor that would allow the likely criminal immigrants to be denied entry.

 

It might also be worth considering the proportions of legal and illegal immigrants jailed compared to the proportions present in the country.

If the vast majority are illegals then to continue to try to stop illegal immigration is the obvious answer as you can't filter out people who never apply for entry.

 

Well, your definition of the term 'pro rata' is different to mine. My definition, which is likely to be confirmed by any dictionary you consult, us that it means in proportion to something. The overall crime rate of foreigners is clearly disproportionate to the indigenous crime rate, if the prison population is used as an indicator.

 

As for effective measures to cope with this problem, there are several things which could be done. Firstly, we could introduce more effective immigration controls, to end for example the various abuses associated with our asylum and refugee policies; secondly, we could introduce tougher policies in relation to the deportation of criminals found guilty of serious offences (very few of these are actually deported); thirdly, we could introduce more rigorous scrutiny of worker migrants (with background checks of the kind I was required to undertake when I applied to work in the US); we could also crack down on illegal immigration in various ways. Where there is a will there is a way. Unfortunately the Labour government has never had the will to introduce effective immigration controls.