andyofborg Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 I said it was simplistic ... but you have completely ignored the main point. How do you repay the "debt"? If there is only the "principal" in circulation, how do you repay the "principal" + "interest"? its not simplistic its just wrong. if there is only the principal in circulation then you would not be able to repay the interest and the bank would not lend you the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyofborg Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 We're not talking about people profiting from selling goods and services in the real economy - that kind of profit is necessary. However, profit from merely creating accounting entries on a fractional reserve basis, which is how commercial banking works, is usury and can only be seen as an exclusive privilege, currently held by banking cartels. to make that "necessary" profit, you need credit. You may need to borrow money to but the raw materials you need to produce your goods. When you sell your goods you may offer your customer one of many forms of credit, HP, 30days to pay etc etc. without credit there would not be mortgages and so only the very rich would be able to buy houses and everyone else would be tenants paying rent. credit allows people to purchase high priced items like cars and the like because they can spread the cost by making a number of affordable payments. without credit the economy would stagnate and not grow. as some people pay their debts back, there will be new borrowers and maybe that does mean that society as a whole can never debt free, but is that really a problem as long as an individual can always pay their's back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syne Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 its not simplistic its just wrong. if there is only the principal in circulation then you would not be able to repay the interest and the bank would not lend you the money. oh really, ever heard of an honest bank? fractional reserve banking? the bank of england company prints 'money' on demand someone deposits £10,000 it can then lend %95 of that out a number of times (20 i think) so then it has currency in circulation to pay back imaginary intrest. etc etc watch this with an open mind http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5541564304553695985 when you have a mortgage you are a defacto tennant .................. also this should be required readin http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Magna_Carta.jpg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyofborg Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 oh really, ever heard of an honest bank? fractional reserve banking? the bank of england company prints 'money' on demand someone deposits £10,000 it can then lend %95 of that out a number of times (20 i think) so then it has currency in circulation to pay back imaginary intrest. etc etc watch this with an open mind http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5541564304553695985 the point of the example was that there was only £1000 in circulation and that the poster had borrowed it all so would be unable to pay the interest. there was no fractional reserve banking in the example. if there had been fractional reserve banking, other people could have borrowed money, used it to buy whatever goods and services the original poster was offering, who would then be in the position to repay the principal, interest and have some left in their pocket. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spraykiller Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 the point of the example was that there was only £1000 in circulation and that the poster had borrowed it all so would be unable to pay the interest. there was no fractional reserve banking in the example. if there had been fractional reserve banking, other people could have borrowed money, used it to buy whatever goods and services the original poster was offering, who would then be in the position to repay the principal, interest and have some left in their pocket. You still have to borrow money to pay the principal, you/WE never get out of borrowing so you are never free of the debts, the national debt is the debt of the people in the uks company thats you with your national insurance number (its in the name!!!!) you are the insurance to the company (uk goverment). Yoy pay the debt and your kids pay the debt forever like a slave to a debt that you did not give your consent too. http://links.veronicachapman.com/LongArmOfTheLaw.htm There is a sleight-of-mind played to use the word 'person' in a special, legal, context. Now, you may have been led to believe that you are a person and, in common parlance, of course you are - but legally speaking 'a person' is not what you think it is. Legally 'a person' is considered to be a 'single-individual CORPORATION'. To whom Corporation (i.e. Admiralty) Law can be applied. (Check back, that's 'the law-of-the-sea'). The law-of-the-sea applies to SHIPs. That's where ownerSHIP, citizenSHIP, LordSHIP, LadySHIP, etc. comes from. (Hey! courtSHIP, leading to a court-enforceable contract - marriage - between two people?) And, once a ship has docked, it can be pinned down (It's hard to pin down a ship while it is sailing). The legal fiction called a PERSON associates a human being, for legal purposes, as a CORPORATION, a legal entity, visualised as a SHIP. That's why, in court, they put you in the Dock. You are docked. You can be pinned down. Once pinned down, Statutes (Corporate Policy) can be brought to bear upon you. It is no accident that the word 'birth' (as in Birth Certificate) and 'berth' (a place where SHIPs are moored) is pronounced in exactly the same way. You were awarded a Berth Certificate when born. However, in reality, you weren't 'birthed' ... you were born. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Berlin Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 You still have to borrow money to pay the principal, you/WE never get out of borrowing so you are never free of the debts, the national debt is the debt of the people in the uks company thats you with your national insurance number (its in the name!!!!) you are the insurance to the company (uk goverment). Yoy pay the debt and your kids pay the debt forever like a slave to a debt that you did not give your consent too. http://links.veronicachapman.com/LongArmOfTheLaw.htm There is a sleight-of-mind played to use the word 'person' in a special, legal, context. Now, you may have been led to believe that you are a person and, in common parlance, of course you are - but legally speaking 'a person' is not what you think it is. Legally 'a person' is considered to be a 'single-individual CORPORATION'. To whom Corporation (i.e. Admiralty) Law can be applied. (Check back, that's 'the law-of-the-sea'). The law-of-the-sea applies to SHIPs. That's where ownerSHIP, citizenSHIP, LordSHIP, LadySHIP, etc. comes from. (Hey! courtSHIP, leading to a court-enforceable contract - marriage - between two people?) And, once a ship has docked, it can be pinned down (It's hard to pin down a ship while it is sailing). The legal fiction called a PERSON associates a human being, for legal purposes, as a CORPORATION, a legal entity, visualised as a SHIP. That's why, in court, they put you in the Dock. You are docked. You can be pinned down. Once pinned down, Statutes (Corporate Policy) can be brought to bear upon you. It is no accident that the word 'birth' (as in Birth Certificate) and 'berth' (a place where SHIPs are moored) is pronounced in exactly the same way. You were awarded a Berth Certificate when born. However, in reality, you weren't 'birthed' ... you were born. Do you have any grip on it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yozhik Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 its not simplistic its just wrong. if there is only the principal in circulation then you would not be able to repay the interest and the bank would not lend you the money. Huh? The "money" does not exist. It is a fiction that is created out of NOTHING. You deal in promissory notes ... a promise to pay when something of value is available. Debt, pushed into the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spraykiller Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 Do you have any grip on it? sorry i dont understand what you are asking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
epiphany Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 to make that "necessary" profit, you need credit. You may need to borrow money to but the raw materials you need to produce your goods. When you sell your goods you may offer your customer one of many forms of credit, HP, 30days to pay etc etc. without credit there would not be mortgages and so only the very rich would be able to buy houses and everyone else would be tenants paying rent. credit allows people to purchase high priced items like cars and the like because they can spread the cost by making a number of affordable payments. without credit the economy would stagnate and not grow. as some people pay their debts back, there will be new borrowers and maybe that does mean that society as a whole can never debt free, but is that really a problem as long as an individual can always pay their's back. Sorry, but this is really a head in hands moment for me. Where did I say we should not use credit in society? Credit is not the problem. Even fractional reserve banking is not the problem as so many reformists claim. The problem is that the creation of credit is an exclusive PRIVILEGE in the realm of high finance. "Without credit the economy would stagnate" - absolutely correct, so if credit is so important to modern society, then why are we paying a handful of banking cartels for this universal right? Like I said, credit is not the same as other products/services. It is the lifeblood of the economy, and parasites currently control the flow of that blood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinz Posted May 7, 2009 Share Posted May 7, 2009 Sorry, but this is really a head in hands moment for me. Where did I say we should not use credit in society? Credit is not the problem. Even fractional reserve banking is not the problem as so many reformists claim. The problem is that the creation of credit is an exclusive PRIVILEGE in the realm of high finance. "Without credit the economy would stagnate" - absolutely correct, so if credit is so important to modern society, then why are we paying a handful of banking cartels for this universal right? Like I said, credit is not the same as other products/services. It is the lifeblood of the economy, and parasites currently control the flow of that blood. Spot on! Giza kiss?........blurgh! yer a bloke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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