The new Islam megathread part 3

[Plain Talker]

Really so the Koran itself doesn't tell how your prophet Mohammed himself gave conquered pagans the choice to covert or die?

 

9.5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

 

As you know very well your religion only allows for very limited tolerance of Jews and Christians, there is no toleration for anyone else.

 

Why are you ignoring all the other examples of compulsion under Islam that I gave? Once again what is the punishment for apostasy under Islam?

 

How can you argue that a religion which punishes those who leave as adults the religion they were told they belonged to as children doesn't compel people?

 

to answer your points in turn:-

the incidents in the Qur'an were referring to wars that were happening at the time of the Prophet PBUH.

 

Islam is very tolerant to other faiths, and set up non-interference laws to protect their interests.

 

We are in the UK. what is the law for apostasy here? (Christian or Muslim)

 

Think back to UK history, and look at the mighty churches built in our towns and cities, and then think about how many ordinary folk, ho may have decided that they did not believe, attended under pain of being sacked by the Mill/ factory owner.. or punished by the Squire/ Lord of the Manor (Or had placed over them the threat of excommunication, a few hundred years earlier?)

 

I argue that as free individuals it is up to us to decide what we do or don't believe in. Your last comment, surely, applies, equally, to any and every religion, as well as humanism and atheism?

[Berberis]

Think back to UK history, and look at the mighty churches built in our towns and cities, and then think about how many ordinary folk, ho may have decided that they did not believe, attended under pain of being sacked by the Mill/ factory owner.. or punished by the Squire/ Lord of the Manor (Or had placed over them the threat of excommunication, a few hundred years earlier?)

 

Harping back hundreds of years to prove a point about a modern issue holds no water i'm afraid, but I do commend your modern views on Islam. Moderate modern Muslims need to stand up more and be heard.

[Berberis]

Wait, you made the claim you should be able to back it up other than conjuring up an imaginary yard stick.

 

 

And that demonstrates your claim "Christians may well be divided, but nowhere near as divided as some of the Muslim sects." how?

 

For one correlation does not imply causation, the only factor you are using here to measure this division is a death toll.

 

 

Theological division, practical division in how the practice, this death toll isn't a measure of difference, it is result thereof.

 

f0rd, I'm just looking at the results of these divisions. The more you start to look at theological or any other type of division, the harder it is to gauge the issue.

 

Baptists and Methodists disagree on interpretation of the Bible, but that does not make them enemies, however Sunni and Shiites have been killing each other for years. Back in history Christian sects may have been up to the same thing, but in modern times you will be hard pressed to find a Modern Christian sect that is hostile to Christians of another sect.

[Dhimmi]

Is Islam the way forward?

 

Nope, not in this country and it never will be

Islam is not a way forward anywhere! It is a very effective means of going backwards though.

[Dhimmi]

Harping back hundreds of years to prove a point about a modern issue holds no water i'm afraid, but I do commend your modern views on Islam. Moderate modern Muslims need to stand up more and be heard.

I think it would be better for them all, moderate and militant, to shut up.

[Halibut]

I think it would be better for them all, moderate and militant, to shut up.

 

You seem to think Islam a terrible idea - what do you propose should we do about it?

[AJ sheffield]

You seem to think Islam a terrible idea - what do you propose should we do about it?

 

Whatever it takes.

[AJ sheffield]

I think it would be better for them all, moderate and militant, to shut up.

 

If only

[Halibut]

Whatever it takes.

 

So you'd deny people's right to believe what they want? What does that make you?

[plekhanov]

to answer your points in turn:-

the incidents in the Qur'an were referring to wars that were happening at the time of the Prophet PBUH.

Yes and? This is a clear example of convert or die ordered by your prophet himself is it not?

 

You cited a centuries old example of Christians saying 'convert or die' why am I not allowed to point out an example of your prophet saying the same? Do muslims not regard Mohamed as living an exemplary life, 'convert or die' included?

 

Islam is very tolerant to other faiths, and set up non-interference laws to protect their interests.

'tolerant' by what standard? Do you deny that under Islam 'tolerance to other faiths' means restricted rights and punitive taxation or Christians and Jews and persecution up to and including 'convert or die' for other groups? That might be 'very tolerant' by the standards of 6th century arabia by the standards of 21st century Europe however it is appallingly intolerant.

 

We are in the UK. what is the law for apostasy here? (Christian or Muslim)

Not for want of trying, we are mercifully free from an apostasy law here thanks to the fact that numerous attempts by Islam to conquer Europe were defeated. But you are simply trying to duck the question regardless of whether or not muslims have been successful of imposing such a law upon our country what is the punishment for apostasy under Islam?

 

How can you argue that a religion which punishes those who leave as adults the religion they were told they belonged to as children doesn't compel people?

 

<snip yet more irrelevant tu quoque nonsense>

And this is supposed to be relevant to what Islam actually says how? This is most dishonest of you, why won't you simply answer the question; What is the punishment for apostasy under Islam?

 

I argue that as free individuals it is up to us to decide what we do or don't believe in. Your last comment, surely, applies, equally, to any and every religion, as well as humanism and atheism?

What complete rubbish, by no means do all religions specify brutal punishments for those who leave or indeed any punishment whatsoever. As for humanism that has no doctrine of punishing those who convert to some other way of thinking atheism has no doctrines of any kind.

 

Contrary to your desperate red herrings, tu quoques and other attempts at evasion there is no getting round the fact that there is a great deal of compulsion inherent in contemporary Islam. So much so that you have to keep on harping back to dark days such as the inquisition centuries ago to find anything equivalent in Christianity.

 

Does the fact that you need to keep on going back to times of atrocity such as the Spanish Inquisition to try and defend Islam really not suggest to you that Islam is anything but a way forward? If it really was a way forward surely you'd be comparing Islam not to centuries old campaigns of terror but pinnacles of human achievement such as for example contemporary Scandinavian society?