Bassman62 Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 The Afghanistan issue or others you mention are groups of people such as extremist Taliban and such like who wish to set up a state that is modelled on the Caliphate Islamic state. They have no authority over any Muslims other than the political area they control, and their expansion is being challenged by other Muslims such as the conflict in Pakistan. I find it disingenuous to call them true believing Islamists when the majority opposing them is ignored as a irrelevance. The extremists don't represent the whole of the Muslim world and to base judgement of all Muslims on these fanatics in wrong and unfair.. Where has it been published that the rest of the muslim world is against the muslim extremists? The only reason that Pakistan has backtracked on its cowardly deal with the Taleban in the Swat valley is due to outside pressure. Where did you demonstrate against them when the Muslim Taleban were shooting women in the back of the head for learning to read and other trivial misdemeanors. Didn't you see the film of these executions taking place in the middle of the kabul football pitch in front of a massive crowd of male scum? Some religion of peace; pieces more like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plain Talker Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 It's ok, I think we're still just about on the same page, that's the one I meant anyway "the half UK Muslims polled said...(not just said:thumbsup:). I was wondering what it was that led you to question it? Do you have a reason to believe it was conducted poorly, or is it just because you didn't like what it turned out? I have done Statistics, and know about analysing research and collating answers. As I said in my other response, above, I know that you have to be very careful about the demographics you poll for answers, and the wording of the questions etc. (look at Homer Simpson's comment:- "Everyone knows that 88.3% of all statistics are made up"!!) When any poll is quoted, the cynic in me immediately says:- "Ok, what were the questions asked?" "Why were they asked?" "How were they asked?" "Who were they asked of?" "What was the asker looking to find from the questions?" and "Is there some agenda behind the Why, the How, and the Who of the questioning?" I have seen so many rag-poor polls that I am very mistrustful of the agenda of the questioner, and am disinclined to accept it at face value. (so no, it's not that I dislike the results, it's that I mistrust the agenda, and the mode of the questioning.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingjimmy Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 I have done Statistics, and know about analysing research and collating answers. As I said in my other response, above, I know that you have to be very careful about the demographics you poll for answers, and the wording of the questions etc. (look at Homer Simpson's comment:- "Everyone knows that 88.3% of all statistics are made up"!!) When any poll is quoted, the cynic in me immediately says:- "Ok, what were the questions asked?" "Why were they asked?" "How were they asked?" "Who were they asked of?" "What was the asker looking to find from the questions?" and "Is there some agenda behind the Why, the How, and the Who of the questioning?" I have seen so many rag-poor polls that I am very mistrustful of the agenda of the questioner, and am disinclined to accept it at face value. (so no, it's not that I dislike the results, it's that I mistrust the agenda, and the mode of the questioning.)But you don't have any idea about the agenda or the mode of questioning, you have no reason to distrust them other than the fact that they show a result that you do not like. Can you honestly say that if the results had been that under 1% of Muslims polled had that opinion and that was what I had quoted that you would've launched into this whole tirade about how opinion polls can't be trusted? To be fair having done some research into the poll it turns out it was conducted by a right wing think tank so I'm beginning to be as sceptical about the results as you, but you didn't know that, and the question above still stands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plain Talker Posted May 31, 2009 Share Posted May 31, 2009 When any poll is quoted, the cynic in me immediately says:- "Ok, what were the questions asked?" "Why were they asked?" "How were they asked?" "Who were they asked of?" "What was the asker looking to find from the questions?" and "Is there some agenda behind the Why, the How, and the Who of the questioning?" I have seen so many rag-poor polls that I am very mistrustful of the agenda of the questioner, and am disinclined to accept it at face value. (so no, it's not that I dislike the results, it's that I mistrust the agenda, and the mode of the questioning.) But you don't have any idea about the agenda or the mode of questioning, you have no reason to distrust them other than the fact that they show a result that you do not like. Can you honestly say that if the results had been that under 1% of Muslims polled had that opinion and that was what I had quoted that you would've launched into this whole tirade about how opinion polls can't be trusted? To be fair having done some research into the poll it turns out it was conducted by a right wing think tank so I'm beginning to be as sceptical about the results as you, but you didn't know that, and the question above still stands. I am a cynic, so when I see polls, yes, I immediately distrust them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tab1 Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 Where has it been published that the rest of the muslim world is against the muslim extremists? The only reason that Pakistan has backtracked on its cowardly deal with the Taleban in the Swat valley is due to outside pressure. Where did you demonstrate against them when the Muslim Taleban were shooting women in the back of the head for learning to read and other trivial misdemeanors. Didn't you see the film of these executions taking place in the middle of the kabul football pitch in front of a massive crowd of male scum? Some religion of peace; pieces more like it. What an islamophoblic view. Daft questions like where was this and where was that when this and that were happening just muddy the waters. You must supply some evidence that these idiotic atrocities were being carried out anywhere else in the Islamic world other than the areas controlled by the extremists like Taliban? All you pathetic brain dead Islamophobes pick up tit bits of information from one corner of an extremist controlled area (that most Muslims disagree with anyway) and immediately set about to extrapolate that to whole of the Muslim world. Can't you get it through the ever so insulated head that almost TWO BILLION Muslims can't be and indeed are not ALL terrorists and extremists. No wonder you are a BNP supporter. Where did I demonstrate against them?..... I didn't need to demonstrate against them, they were not a threat to me or you. They, the Taliban were given a choice to hand over Usama bin Laden and they would be spared the invasion. Liberating Afghanistan was never on the cards. I am not demonstrating against the annihilation of the Taliban at the hands of the Pakistan military now, because it doesn't concern me. Muslims are not a single entity as you stupid Islamophobes believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tab1 Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 That statement is absolutely impossible to swallow when there is so much evidence to contradict it. Go on try, just this time, you might get to like it, as you will have to swallow it at some stage in the future. The laws I've mentioned aren't 'ascribed by [me] to Islam' they are ascribed to Islam by the people who introduced them according to their understanding of Islam and enforce them according to their understanding of Islam. People acting outside of the law of any land are criminals no matter what reasoning they use. You are being dishonest if you are implying that a law made in Afghanistan by the Taliban somehow applies to Muslims in Pakistan. Muslims, just like Christians are not a single entity. I have said before gangs hell bent on creating their own version of an Islamic state do not represent mainstream Islam as they have no legitimacy anywhere other than the area they control. In Pakistan the area they tried to control and convert to their utopian state has been challenged and forcibly taken away from them. You give an example of extremism and then try and extrapulate that to the whole of the Muslim world. Are those true believing Islamist fanatics in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Saudi, Nigeria, Iran... all lying when they proudly proclaim that they do what they do because of Islam? Fanatics in small numbers in all areas of the world. The BNP fanatics don't represent mainstream British opinion and the Muslim fanatics don't represent mainstream Islam either. Funnily enough word pride comes into play a lot with fanatics of all persuasions. When did you become the one true authority on what is an isn't Islam and what can and can't be done in the name of Islam? Just because you might disagree with Islamists understanding of Islam but that doesn't magically mean they don't do what they do because of Islam. I have been representing myself all my adult life. Islam is part of me. Great song and dance is made of what others do in name of Islam, but it's a name largely attributed by people like yourself. the people who carried out the London Bombings said in their suicide videos that they were doing so as a revenge for Iraq invasion and killing of their Muslim brothers or something to that effect, but people like yourself blamed the whole thing not on terrorism inspired by an illegal war but blamed religion for teaching Muslims to kill the non believers. No sir it's you Islamophobes who claim they are doing it in name of Islam even when evidence points overwhelmingly to other factors. I didn't imply "the laws of apostasy still applied today" I flatly stated that they were and provided evidence from Amnesty International to substantiate my claim. The fact that you are studiously ignoring those Amnesty documents doesn't magically make them or the cases they are based upon disappear.Again my contention is not that bad things are done by Muslims but there is no requirement by Islam for that to be done. Islam hasn't any such law, and the state that had the law is defunct, so why are you flogging this dead horse? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingjimmy Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 Go on try, just this time, you might get to like it, as you will have to swallow it at some stage in the future. People acting outside of the law of any land are criminals no matter what reasoning they use. You are being dishonest if you are implying that a law made in Afghanistan by the Taliban somehow applies to Muslims in Pakistan. Muslims, just like Christians are not a single entity. I have said before gangs hell bent on creating their own version of an Islamic state do not represent mainstream Islam as they have no legitimacy anywhere other than the area they control. In Pakistan the area they tried to control and convert to their utopian state has been challenged and forcibly taken away from them. You give an example of extremism and then try and extrapulate that to the whole of the Muslim world. Fanatics in small numbers in all areas of the world. The BNP fanatics don't represent mainstream British opinion and the Muslim fanatics don't represent mainstream Islam either. Funnily enough word pride comes into play a lot with fanatics of all persuasions. I have been representing myself all my adult life. Islam is part of me. Great song and dance is made of what others do in name of Islam, but it's a name largely attributed by people like yourself. the people who carried out the London Bombings said in their suicide videos that they were doing so as a revenge for Iraq invasion and killing of their Muslim brothers or something to that effect, but people like yourself blamed the whole thing not on terrorism inspired by an illegal war but blamed religion for teaching Muslims to kill the non believers. No sir it's you Islamophobes who claim they are doing it in name of Islam even when evidence points overwhelmingly to other factors. Again my contention is not that bad things are done by Muslims but there is no requirement by Islam for that to be done. Islam hasn't any such law, and the state that had the law is defunct, so why are you flogging this dead horse? You could feed all the queens Horse's for weeks with all the straw collected from this post! I'm too lazy to deconstruct it now, I need an early night for once, but tab either you're stupid or you're being very dishonest, you never actually argue against what's been said, it's ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tab1 Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 You could feed all the queens Horse's for weeks with all the straw collected from this post! I'm too lazy to deconstruct it now, I need an early night for once, but tab either you're stupid or you're being very dishonest, you never actually argue against what's been said, it's ridiculous.Maybe I should stick to saying, "no it isn't" and "no I don't" only as anything resembling a discussion by using any contradictory example is deemed inadmissible and a strawman. You do have an unhealthy fascinating with straw Jimmy. Rather than deconstruct the post, why not just answer it? Saves time. I simply answer them, if you see straw in there then you just take it out and sell it for what it's worth Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upinwath Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 Where has it been published that the rest of the muslim world is against the muslim extremists? The only reason that Pakistan has backtracked on its cowardly deal with the Taleban in the Swat valley is due to outside pressure. . Try looking at muslim forums and see the reaction to terrorist threads. A few are pro but most are not. The second half is part true but the government there also realised they were about to loose control of the country if they didn't act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upinwath Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 Where has it been published that the rest of the muslim world is against the muslim extremists? Another comment. In the UK there are extreme elements on the political left and political right. To follow your logic I assume you are a supporter of both sets of loonies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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