plekhanov Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 actually I asked her about that in a PM and she gave me a response I was at least partially satisfied with. I can't reproduce her PM due to forum rules, but suffice to say I think she just missed it, we were having a different argument at the same time on the same thread and I don't think she intentionally ignored it. Fair enough it's just that I recall her ignoring my posts when I've made more or less the exact same point to her on a number of occasions in the past which makes me suspicious of her 'missing' it yet again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassman62 Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 Just a general point. If there is an Allah, and the Muslim people are his children, why are these Muslim countries mostly poor, where the masses live in poverty? There appears to be more natural disasters, I think, than in the west, more starvation, more conflict, more floods and more disease. Surely Allah would have ensured that all these were suffered by the USA and not at the heart of his belief? That's unless its all a fairy tale that you'd have to be a bit thick to fall for? Let us wait with baited breath for Tab1 or Plain Talkers reply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tab1 Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 Originally Posted by tab1 PT's example was valid as your quote was even older than the PT's centuries old one, and the inqusitions historically proven to have taken place. There is no convert or die order that applies today, and you know it so stop lieing. I never said there was one today, will you please respond to what I actually post instead of strawmen of your own invention.I would say you lied there, here is you claiming that compultion exists today Besides there is a great deal of compulsion in religion in societies where Islam is dominant, up to the total persecution of non-abrahamic religions, the extremely limited toleration of rival abrahamic religions so long as they don't actually try proselytising and the absolute prohibition upon those Remind us what is the punishment for apostasy under Islam again? There is no prescribed punishment for apostasy in Islam and for you to infer there is order by Islam is a lie. No law without enforcing authority and the enforcing authority that was known as the state of Islam is no more. So your paedophile prophet didn't dictate the Koran then? Even if he didn’t the fact remains there is a clear case of ‘convert or die’ in your precious book. Paedophilia allegation already dealt with and it is stupid to keep believing that in face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. No such clear case of ‘convert or die’ And where did I say that particular verse it was about apostasy? I cited 9.5 as an example of coercion having taken place in the history of Islam (in just the same way that Plain Talker cited the Inquisition). I then mentioned the punishments for apostasy later in the post as another example of coercion in Islam. Do you really not understand that I could use two separate examples of coercion within Islam: 1. Convert to Islam or die 2. Convert from Islam and die Without arguing that both examples are identical? Also I find it hilarious that you are attempting to characterise an order to kill those who fail to convert as an "attempt to find terms of peace through respect for all the religions in the area at the time". 9.5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. Kill them unless they convert yeah that real respectful If Bush and Blair had ordered their troops to slaughter all the Afghans and Iraqis who didn't convert to Christianity I really rather doubt you'd have seen that as praiseworthy. I know many of you old Trots have totally sold out to Islam but isn't this taking your double standard a little far? Look at the gloating and false spin put on the verse quoted, but when you read the complete verses in context they imply something else, and indeed refer to a treaty as wildcat was saying and which you found hiarious. It was end of a treaty and not as you make out that it was a formal ultimatum of convert or die. 9.4 . Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye ( Muslims ) have a treaty , and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you . ( As for these ) , fulfil their treaty to them till their term . Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty ( unto Him ) . 9.5 . Then , when the sacred months have passed , slay the idolaters wherever ye find them , and take them ( captive ) , and besiege them , and prepare for them each ambush . But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor due , then leave their way free . Lo! Allah is Forgiving , Merciful . 9.6 . And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection ( O Muhammad ) , then protect him so that he may hear the word of Allah ; and afterward convey him to his place of safety . That is because they are a folk who know not . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassman62 Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 Paedophilia allegation already dealt with and it is stupid to keep believing that in face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary. It hasn't been answered with any proof only a cover up to hide his disgusting conduct of marrying a child. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halibut Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 It hasn't been answered with any proof only a cover up to hide his disgusting conduct of marrying a child. I'm interested to know why you find this particular case of alleged child sex so important? Do you believe it suggests that all followers of Islam believe sex with kids is ok? Or is there something else I'm not getting? Many cultures all over the world have had at times societal norms about 'marriage' or sexual activity where the age of the girls or women involved would seem shocking by todays standards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tab1 Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 It hasn't been answered with any proof only a cover up to hide his disgusting conduct of marrying a child.It can not be called a cover up when the evidence is there for everybody to examine. Those that are able to or a capable of investigating are satisfied with the truth. You either know very little about Islam or do not have grasp of English enough to understand what I posted on the subject earlier. How about you responding to my post that asked, "You must supply some evidence that these idiotic atrocities were being carried out anywhere else in the Islamic world other than the areas controlled by the extremists like Taliban?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassman62 Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 It can not be called a cover up when the evidence is there for everybody to examine. Those that are able to or a capable of investigating are satisfied with the truth. You either know very little about Islam or do not have grasp of English enough to understand what I posted on the subject earlier.So what is a right hand posession, how nmuch can a muslim husband beat his wife, is the muslim wife a right hand posession? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassman62 Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 Many cultures all over the world have had at times societal norms about 'marriage' or sexual activity where the age of the girls or women involved would seem shocking by todays standards.Yes but those cultures have moved on whereas Islam has to be adhered to as it was originaly written in the Koran and not as things are today; that is why I'd still like to know about wife beating and right hand posessions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassman62 Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 How about you responding to my post that asked, "You must supply some evidence that these idiotic atrocities were being carried out anywhere else in the Islamic world other than the areas controlled by the extremists like Taliban?"You mean like executing Homosexuals in Iran or stoning women for adultry in Nigeria or demanding the death penalty for naming a teddy bear Mohamed in Somalia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halibut Posted June 1, 2009 Share Posted June 1, 2009 Yes but those cultures have moved on whereas Islam has to be adhered to as it was originaly written in the Koran and not as things are today; that is why I'd still like to know about wife beating and right hand posessions. Are you suggesting that sex with young and pre-teen girls is aceptable an Islam? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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