Plain Talker Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 How clever of the muslim clerics to call them martyrs instead of suicide bombers; but not only that they're encouraging them to blow themselves up to receive 70+ virgins on entering heaven, how insulting to women is that? Where did these 70+ virgins come from; are they some of those shot in the head for learning to read? You are being very disingenuous. I wonder, are you a medium/ clairvoyant? Could you be channelling the late blues musician, erm... MUDDY WATERS perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onetwo07 Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Wow, fairly intense stuff on this thread! I haven't read through everything, but my comment on the original thread title would be to say it is somewhat needlessly provocative. I am not happy with the insinuation that seems to be quite rife amongst some on this forum, that there is a 'them' and 'us' situation. Either you are a rabid extreme nationalist/'patriot', or an apologist for militant Islam. I am neither, I would not try and defend either and I'm guessing the majority of people would say likewise. That said, attempting to understand forces behind things is not the same as defending them, it is merely an attempt to try and slightly better understand the imperfect world in which we find ourselves. I don't think Islam is the way forward, I am a secularist who holds the idea of separation of religion and state very dearly. I would not however dispute anyone's right to hold a personal religious belief, and certainly do not agree with the sentiment that the question is clearly aiming to stir up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bassman62 Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 You are being very disingenuous. I wonder, are you a medium/ clairvoyant? Could you be channelling the late blues musician, erm... MUDDY WATERS perhaps? Well just answer who is using who when they promise these pea brained suicide bombers (not martyrs how can you be a martyr blowing up fellow muslims in a packed market) 70+ virgins and martyrdom for carrying out these acts of terrorism. How can Islam be the way foreward? Regarding Muddy waters; we do sing 'I've got my Mojo working' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plain Talker Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Well just answer who is using who when they promise these pea brained suicide bombers (not martyrs how can you be a martyr blowing up fellow muslims in a packed market) 70+ virgins and martyrdom for carrying out these acts of terrorism. How can Islam be the way foreward? Regarding Muddy waters; we do sing 'I've got my Mojo working' You know my view on suicide bombings, as a Muslim:- If paradise is waiting, why aren't the teachers teaching the gullible youths to do the bombings at the forefront of the queue to get their "reward" instead of leading from the back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tab1 Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 No tab1, that's the part that you made up, Plek never said it, or implied it. Probably because you have no defence for what was actually said, this whole thing with you strawmanning Plek is just a distraction so you don't actually have to address the points he's making. OK Jimy boy you translate what point is Plek making here Besides there is a great deal of compulsion in religion in societies where Islam is dominant, up to the total persecution of non-abrahamic religions, the extremely limited toleration of rival abrahamic religions so long as they don't actually try proselytising ................................ And I contend there isn't, as simple as that. He didn't say there was or there may have been but there is right now and at present, which is not the case. If you think that I as a Muslim must be a liar and an islamophobe is more knowledgeable about what I or my fellow Muslims believe then there is no point in arguing against faith in Plek of that magnitude. As you well know but can't bring yourself to admit punishment for apostasy under Islam is generally agreed amongst Islamic scholars to be death. You argued that my comment about the absurdity of a religion which mandates death for those that leave it claiming not to compel people "applies, equally, to any and every religion, as well as humanism and atheism". As such you made the exact claim I responded to. Here is another lie I made up Jimmy, that Plek is saying there is an order to kill apostates, of course you can prove from reading the above that I am fabricating it all. Another lie Jimmy is that Plek says there is a clear choice in Islam of convert or die, and of course he never said this So your paedophile prophet didn't dictate the Koran then? Even if he didn’t the fact remains there is a clear case of ‘convert or die’ in your precious book. I tried to convince people that the verse is disingenuously being presented out of context by the number one Islamophobe and if you read the complete three verses the meaning and context change. That is a lie I am making up Jimmy even though Plek posted it. 9.4 . Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye ( Muslims ) have a treaty , and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you . ( As for these ) , fulfil their treaty to them till their term . Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty ( unto Him ) . 9.5 . Then , when the sacred months have passed , slay the idolaters wherever ye find them , and take them ( captive ) , and besiege them , and prepare for them each ambush . But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor due , then leave their way free . Lo! Allah is Forgiving , Merciful . 9.6 . And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection ( O Muhammad ) , then protect him so that he may hear the word of Allah ; and afterward convey him to his place of safety . That is because they are a folk who know not . His confusion and perhaps even yours has been in not being able to separate the state law from the personal law. Islam has no enforcement of law and Islam, and the laws of the Islamic state were man made laws albeit Islam inspired, but those laws no longer hold sway on Muslims as there is no state of Islam. Anyway I don't want this post to be as lengthy and confusing as Plek's so I'll stop at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plekhanov Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Another attempted record of the most boring confused post on SF. You said this and I said that. You said there was clear order to convert or die in Muslim dominant societies, Liar, I said "there is a great deal of compulsion in religion in societies where Islam is dominant" compulsion covers a great many things other than 'convert or die'. In response to Plain Talkers tu quoque response that Christianity has a history of extreme compulsion ie. the Inquisition. I pointed out that Islam also has a history of 'convert or die' from your paedophilic warlord prophet no less: Really so the Koran itself doesn't tell how your prophet Mohammed himself gave conquered pagans the choice to covert or die? 9.5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. and implied that the order applied today. You are pretending I 'implied it' because you know I never actually said it. The facts are on my side Islam's past and present is so full of coercion that unlike you I can and do cite specific examples to substantiate my position. I don't need to imply anything, nor unlike you do I need to lie, falsely accuse people of being fascists or run away from reasoned argument and evidence. Like you coward that you are continue to do. When I challenged your claim, you then went about creating these mega posts that muddy the waters with pulling cases in news papers from different parts of the world and trying to lay all the blame on Islam. You sir changed the argument from a false allegation on all Muslims to one where you claim righteousness that it happens somewhere in the Muslim world. Please do point to the specific post, paragraph and sentence where I made this "false allegation on all Muslims". That isn’t the argument Plek, your false claim of it happening in all Muslim countries as a norm and is happening because of Islam, is the contentious part, and you are wrong. I went back to you original accusations because you are clearly contradicting yourself by making an accusation then changing the argument. Instead of defending the original false claim, you have since moved the argument away from something posting more confused cut and paste garbage. Stick to the original allegation that a clear order to convert or die exists today and the order is given by Islam for all muslims to implement. Liar, you know very well I never said anything of the sort. Why can't you respond to what people actually post? Why do you have to be so continually dishonest? And theists claim religion instils morality I know what compulsion is and the order to kill an apostate is. You tell me where does Islam give that order? You quoted scripture out of context, to imply something quite different to what it actually said and had the temerity to call others fools when challenged on the issue. Get this through your head Plek, any person basing their judgements on a law that was created and practiced by the state of Islam during the Caliphate, is not doing it because of any order in Islam, but copying the now defunct state law. I keep repeating and keep coming up against your confusion or abstinence to accept that the Sharia state law of a defunct Islamic state is not the same as Islam that the prophet Mohammed (pbuh) passed on to us. You disagreeing with all the Muslims who think Islam still requires them to punish apostates doesn't magically mean they don't exist. I claimed "there is a great deal of compulsion in religion in societies where Islam is dominant" the true believing Muslims be they in the employ of Islamist states or Islamlist vigilantes are but one example of this compulsion. Another stupid allegation is the paedophilia, and treating any piece of information without processing it through your brain of it's possibility of being wrong is quite stupid. Overwhelming evidence is the comparison of other events and comparing the time line for ourselves if the claims of age of Aisha's being 9, stand up to scrutiny, and surprise surprise Plek, they don't. That of course is not enough and is called an apology by the master of cut and paste, who just happens to be an Islamophobe. Yeah it's just so 'stupid' to take a hadith in the manner it was treated for centuries until the recent development of an abhorrence of child brides led Muslim apologists to desperately try to rewrite what had become an embarrassment. Anyway now that I've with your most recent round of lies, strawmen and other desperate attempts to avoid responding to the substance of the post I made yesterday so here it is again: Fanatics in small numbers in all areas of the world. The BNP fanatics don't represent mainstream British opinion and the Muslim fanatics don't represent mainstream Islam either. Funnily enough word pride comes into play a lot with fanatics of all persuasions. 1. I clearly didn't say Islamists "represent mainstream Islam" I simply said that contrary to your denials they are part of Islam. Why can't you actually respond to what people post? Why do you have to be so continually dishonest? 2. Amusingly even your rebuttal of what you wish I'd said still doesn't hold up. Islamist fanatics control several countries and have considerable support from Muslims worldwide. For example according to a 2005 Pew Research Survey in the following Muslim Majority countries support amongst Muslims for; Suicide bombings and other acts violence of against civilian targets in defence of Islam was at the following levels: ________Often/ ________Sometimes__Rarely__Never__DK Jordan____57_________31_____11____1 Lebanon__39_________19______33___10 Pakistan__25_________19______46___10 Indonesia_15_________18______66___1 Turkey___14_________6_______66____13 Morocco _13_________5_______79____3 According to the same study, 'the %age of people with Confidence in bin Laden as a World Leader' was at the following levels: ________2003_2005 Jordan____55__60 Pakistan__45__51 Indonesia_58__35 Morocco__49__26 Turkey___15__7 Lebanon__14__2 If the BNP were anything like as representative of British opinion as support for Islamist terrorism is in many countries Britain would have a BNP government. Your attempt to equate the two just doesn't hold up. I have been representing myself all my adult life. Islam is part of me. Great song and dance is made of what others do in name of Islam, but it's a name largely attributed by people like yourself. the people who carried out the London Bombings said in their suicide videos that they were doing so as a revenge for Iraq invasion and killing of their Muslim brothers or something to that effect, but people like yourself blamed the whole thing not on terrorism inspired by an illegal war but blamed religion for teaching Muslims to kill the non believers. No sir it's you Islamophobes who claim they are doing it in name of Islam even when evidence points overwhelmingly to other factors. So you concede that you aren't the "one true authority on what is an isn't Islam and what can and can't be done in the name of Islam" then? That aside it's just hilarious that you can blame people for attributing atleast a portion of the motivation behind the actions of certain terrorists to Islam when they say things like "I ask you to make du'a [a supplication] to Allah Almighty to accept the work from me and my brothers and enter us into gardens of paradise." when faced with evidence such as that only a liar or delusional fool would deny that Islam played a part. It's also hilarious that you think that a British citizen with Pakistani & Belgian parents wanting "revenge for Iraq invasion and killing of their Muslim brothers" has nothing to do with Islam. If not due to Islam why would he want to avenge his "muslim brothers" in a country he has no ties to other than religion? Besides as I have already pointed out and you have studiously ignored Anyway you are posing a false dilemma; the existence of other factors doesn’t magically absolve Islam of all blame for the actions of Islamists who give every indication that they are doing what they do because it accords with what they believe Islam demands of them. It is entirely possible for an Islamist to be motivated both by Islam and amongst other things American foreign policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plekhanov Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 <snip yet more desperate lies> His confusion and perhaps even yours has been in not being able to separate the state law from the personal law. Islam has no enforcement of law and Islam, and the laws of the Islamic state were man made laws albeit Islam inspired, but those laws no longer hold sway on Muslims as there is no state of Islam. Anyway I don't want this post to be as lengthy and confusing as Plek's so I'll stop at this point. flamingjimmy & I are pointing out how some Muslims interpret Islam and how they act upon their interpretation. Just because you find the actions of those true believing muslims embarrassing that doesn't magically mean they and their understanding of Islam don't exist. You can repeat your delusional claims that "those laws no longer hold sway on Muslims" as much as you like, it just isn't very convincing when there is so much evidence of such laws holding sway over Muslims. As documented by the likes of Amnesty International. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tab1 Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 Liar, I said "there is a great deal of compulsion in religion in societies where Islam is dominant" compulsion covers a great many things other than 'convert or die'. It does indeed mean other things than 'convert or die' but this is what you said Originally Posted by plekhanov So your paedophile prophet didn't dictate the Koran then? Even if he didn’t the fact remains there is a clear case of ‘convert or die’ in your precious book. And you sir didn't only imply but said there is this punishment agreed by scholarsOriginally Posted by plekhanov As you well know but can't bring yourself to admit punishment for apostasy under Islam is generally agreed amongst Islamic scholars to be death. All the lengthy posts aside Plek do you not know there is no enforcing authority for the laws that you mention, and an individual cannot take law into his hands, so who is making the law and who is enforcing it? Is Islam dictating the law or are you referring to a law practiced by a state of Islam that no longer exists. Don't make long posts Plek just keep it to the point please, and let’s find what you are really arguing about. What do you take Islam to be, the religion or the Muslims, and do you regard Islam a single entity that you can conveniently blame? And even after reading the full verse in context do you stick by your assertion that your take on the order was correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plekhanov Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 It does indeed mean other things than 'convert or die' but this is what you said I never denied I used the words 'convert or die' I'm simply pointing out I didn't use them in the way you so dishonestly pretend I did. And you sir didn't only imply but said there is this punishment agreed by scholars Liar, apostasy deals with people leaving the faith, 'convert or die' is about forcing people into the faith. I was clearly talking about two distint examples of compulsion in your religion one historical one all too contemporary. You are most unconvincingly attempting to take two things I said out of context and force them together and you can't even manage to do that convincingly. Given all the practice you've had lying in this thread there's really no excuse for still doing it so badly. All the lengthy posts aside Plek do you not know there is no enforcing authority for the laws that you mention, and an individual cannot take law into his hands, so who is making the law and who is enforcing it? Is Islam dictating the law or are you referring to a law practiced by a state of Islam that no longer exists. Don't make long posts Plek just keep it to the point please, and let’s find what you are really arguing about. What do you take Islam to be, the religion or the Muslims, and do you regard Islam a single entity that you can conveniently blame? And even after reading the full verse in context do you stick by your assertion that your take on the order was correct? 'no enforcing authority for the laws that you mention' What about the Iranian government? What about the Taliban? What about the Saudi government?... Do you really not understand that just because you find such examples of organised coercion by true believing Muslims embarrassing that doesn't magically mean they don't exist? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tab1 Posted June 2, 2009 Share Posted June 2, 2009 flamingjimmy & I are pointing out how some Muslims interpret Islam and how they act upon their interpretation. If only you had said that Plek then there would be no dispute, but you didn't to start with. Just because you find the actions of those true believing muslims embarrassing that doesn't magically mean they and their understanding of Islam don't exist. Far from it, there is no reason for me to feel embarrassed because some one from another part of the world does something I don't agree with. It is only the stupid Islamophobic mentality that thinks I should be apologetic for others behaviour. It's those that treat Islam as a single entity that have such a view. Most of what those guys do is cultural and religious and in most cases simply born out of a sense of persecution by and hate of the West. You can repeat your delusional claims that "those laws no longer hold sway on Muslims" as much as you like, it just isn't very convincing when there is so much evidence of such laws holding sway over Muslims. As documented by the likes of Amnesty International.OK Plek I'll keep pretending and deluding myself that there is no more Caliphate system in Islam and you keep believing the truth that there is, and they are of course poised to take over soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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