The new Islam megathread part 3

[plekhanov]

Also tab1 I note you are still running from my demolition of your pathetic attempt to equate support for the BNP in the UK with militant Islamists, and bizzare claims that people who effectively say 'I did this because of my Islamic faith' weren't influenced by their faith, so here it is again.

 

Will you please stop running from this like the coward that you are and respond.

 

Fanatics in small numbers in all areas of the world. The BNP fanatics don't represent mainstream British opinion and the Muslim fanatics don't represent mainstream Islam either. Funnily enough word pride comes into play a lot with fanatics of all persuasions.

1. I clearly didn't say Islamists "represent mainstream Islam" I simply said that contrary to your denials they are part of Islam. Why can't you actually respond to what people post? Why do you have to be so continually dishonest?

 

2. Amusingly even your rebuttal of what you wish I'd said still doesn't hold up. Islamist fanatics control several countries and have considerable support from Muslims worldwide. For example according to a 2005 Pew Research Survey in the following Muslim Majority countries support amongst Muslims for; Suicide bombings and other acts violence of against civilian targets in defence of Islam was at the following levels:

 

________Often/

________Sometimes__Rarely__Never__DK

Jordan____57_________31_____11____1

Lebanon__39_________19______33___10

Pakistan__25_________19______46___10

Indonesia_15_________18______66___1

Turkey___14_________6_______66____13

Morocco _13_________5_______79____3

 

According to the same study, 'the %age of people with Confidence in bin Laden as a World Leader' was at the following levels:

 

________2003_2005

Jordan____55__60

Pakistan__45__51

Indonesia_58__35

Morocco__49__26

Turkey___15__7

Lebanon__14__2

 

If the BNP were anything like as representative of British opinion as support for Islamist terrorism is in many countries Britain would have a BNP government. Your attempt to equate the two just doesn't hold up.

 

I have been representing myself all my adult life. Islam is part of me. Great song and dance is made of what others do in name of Islam, but it's a name largely attributed by people like yourself. the people who carried out the London Bombings said in their suicide videos that they were doing so as a revenge for Iraq invasion and killing of their Muslim brothers or something to that effect, but people like yourself blamed the whole thing not on terrorism inspired by an illegal war but blamed religion for teaching Muslims to kill the non believers.

No sir it's you Islamophobes who claim they are doing it in name of Islam even when evidence points overwhelmingly to other factors.

So you concede that you aren't the "one true authority on what is an isn't Islam and what can and can't be done in the name of Islam" then?

 

That aside it's just hilarious that you can blame people for attributing atleast a portion of the motivation behind the actions of certain terrorists to Islam when they say things like "I ask you to make du'a [a supplication] to Allah Almighty to accept the work from me and my brothers and enter us into gardens of paradise." when faced with evidence such as that only a liar or delusional fool would deny that Islam played a part.

 

It's also hilarious that you think that a British citizen with Pakistani & Belgian parents wanting "revenge for Iraq invasion and killing of their Muslim brothers" has nothing to do with Islam. If not due to Islam why would he want to avenge his "muslim brothers" in a country he has no ties to other than religion?

 

Besides as I have already pointed out and you have studiously ignored Anyway you are posing a false dilemma; the existence of other factors doesn’t magically absolve Islam of all blame for the actions of Islamists who give every indication that they are doing what they do because it accords with what they believe Islam demands of them. It is entirely possible for an Islamist to be motivated both by Islam and amongst other things American foreign policy.

[tab1]

I never denied I used the words 'convert or die' I'm simply pointing out I didn't use them in the way you so dishonestly pretend I did.

 

 

Liar, apostasy deals with people leaving the faith, 'convert or die' is about forcing people into the faith. I was clearly talking about two distint examples of compulsion in your religion one historical one all too contemporary.

 

You are most unconvincingly attempting to take two things I said out of context and force them together and you can't even manage to do that convincingly. Given all the practice you've had lying in this thread there's really no excuse for still doing it so badly.

 

 

'no enforcing authority for the laws that you mention'

 

What about the Iranian government? What about the Taliban? What about the Saudi government?...

 

Do you really not understand that just because you find such examples of organised coercion by true believing Muslims embarrassing that doesn't magically mean they don't exist?

Iranian Law applies to mainly a single sect of Islam, the Shi'ites. The Afghani laws apply to maybe a tiny part of Afghanistan that may at times be under their control, and the Saudis have laws for their country (combined population of three countries=126,214,638), but how does it then translate to applying to Islam for you to argue so strongly that these three countries somehow represent the whole of almost two Billion Muslims? As I said Islam is not a single entity and it is disingenuous of you to treat it as such.

 

Do you really not understand that just because you find such examples of organised coercion by true believing Muslims embarrassing that doesn't magically mean they don't exist?

This another strawman indeed, you are the one who was translating isolated incidents from the whole world to blame whole of Islamic world. A single incident here and there does not magically mean all Muslims do or even share those actions or beliefs.

[plekhanov]

If only you had said that Plek then there would be no dispute, but you didn't to start with.

I've been repeatedly saying just that throughout the thread for example:

 

So anyway tab1 if as you claim "Islam does not punish people for leaving Islam" why are there so many examples of true believers in Islam punishing apostates in the name of Islam for doing so? Why do so many Islamic scholars seem convinced death is the appropriate punishment for the 'crime' of leaving Islam?

 

You responded to the post I said that in and numerous others where I said basically the same thing so you can hardly claim ignorance.

 

Far from it, there is no reason for me to feel embarrassed because some one from another part of the world does something I don't agree with. It is only the stupid Islamophobic mentality that thinks I should be apologetic for others behaviour. It's those that treat Islam as a single entity that have such a view.

Most of what those guys do is cultural and religious and in most cases simply born out of a sense of persecution by and hate of the West.

Really so you don't feel embarrassed that true believing members of your faith in the name of your faith throw acid in the faces of women and girls for not covering their faces, murder people for converting to christianity, try to execute teachers for letting children name a teddy bear Mohamed, kill people for translating books that say things they don't like... you truly have no shame. But of course that much was obvious from your conduct in this thread.

 

OK Plek I'll keep pretending and deluding myself that there is no more Caliphate system in Islam and you keep believing the truth that there is, and they are of course poised to take over soon.

And still the strawmen keep on coming, you know very well that I never claim the Caliphate was extant. Why can't you actually respond to what people post? Why do you have to be so continually dishonest?

 

I have simply pointed out to you in the face of your delusional denials that there are indeed people, organisations & states today which impose their understanding of Islam & it's laws upon others.

[tab1]

Too much cut and pate Plek, and not enough answers from you. You haven't yet answered some of my questions. So clear up the confusion first over your original allegation on Islam then we can move forward to deal with this muddying of the waters by meaningless surveys. So deal with that first please. Foer someone who prides himself on factual posts you are being petty and insolent today, bad upbringing is it? Maybe mummy dear wasn't too bothered about teaching manners and social skills.

[plekhanov]

Iranian Law applies to mainly a single sect of Islam, the Shi'ites. The Afghani laws apply to maybe a tiny part of Afghanistan that may at times be under their control, and the Saudis have laws for their country (combined population of three countries=126,214,638), but how does it then translate to applying to Islam for you to argue so strongly that these three countries somehow represent the whole of almost two Billion Muslims? As I said Islam is not a single entity and it is disingenuous of you to treat it as such.

And the strawmen keep on coming.

 

I never stated that Islam is a monolithic entity, in fact I have clearly been arguing it isn't hence all the times I pointed out how some Muslims have very different understandings of Islam to you.

 

I never claimed that the examples I gave of coercion within Islam "represent the whole of almost two Billion Muslims".

 

Why can't you actually respond to what people post? Why do you have to be so continually dishonest?

 

You not I are the one who has been making universal claims such as "Islam does not punish people for leaving Islam" and "no enforcing authority for the laws that you mention". Universal claims I was able to disprove with ease by provided examples which demonstrated them to be false.

 

In contrast I not being a moron made existential claims such as "there is a great deal of compulsion inherent in contemporary Islam" note I never said 'Islam is entirely coercive' or anything like that simply that there is compulsion in Islam which there is, claims I have been able to substantiate with ease.

 

This another strawman indeed, you are the one who was translating isolated incidents from the whole world to blame whole of Islamic world. A single incident here and there does not magically mean all Muslims do or even share those actions or beliefs.

And where specifically did I state that "a single incident here and there does mean all Muslims do or even share those actions or beliefs"?

 

I cited those examples to rebut your universal claims and to substantiate my existential claims, I made no universal claim on the strength of them so please stop pretending that I did.

[plekhanov]

Too much cut and pate Plek, and not enough answers from you. You haven't yet answered some of my questions. So clear up the confusion first over your original allegation on Islam then we can move forward to deal with this muddying of the waters by meaningless surveys. So deal with that first please. Foer someone who prides himself on factual posts you are being petty and insolent today, bad upbringing is it? Maybe mummy dear wasn't too bothered about teaching manners and social skills.

You don't get to lie to and about somebody throughout a thread, accuse someone of being a BNP supporter simply because they oppose Islam and then get to whine about them being rude to you.

 

Here's a tip for you, stop accusing people of being in the BNP and respond to what they actually post and then they might be a little more polite.

[tab1]

I've been repeatedly saying just that throughout the thread for example:

You didn't say how some interpret Islam differently Plek but clearly accused all Islamic societies of things I objected to.

 

You responded to the post I said that in and numerous others where I said basically the same thing so you can hardly claim ignorance.

And in every response the reasoning has been the same. Don't accuse Islam for the extreme interpretations of some of it's followers. Islam didn't make the rules but people did. I have repeated it enough times that the last time there was any Islamic law through out the world was the Caliphate, and not since.

 

Really so you don't feel embarrassed that true believing members of your faith in the name of your faith throw acid in the faces of women and girls for not covering their faces, murder people for converting to Christianity, try to execute teachers for letting children name a teddy bear Mohamed, kill people for translating books that say things they don't like... you truly have no shame. But of course that much was obvious from your conduct in this thread.

Every Muslim around the world should be embarrassed that some nutters in various parts of the world are doing bad things, I can see you are a clever man indeed but logic is quite alien to you.

This is what I meant by you pulling various bad things from around the world and holding all Muslims responsible for any bad act by any Muslim anywhere and think we should apologise to idiots who can't draw a distinction between extremists and the everyday normal people.

 

And still the strawmen keep on coming, you know very well that I never claim the Caliphate was extant. Why can't you actually respond to what people post? Why do you have to be so continually dishonest?

 

I have simply pointed out to you in the face of your delusional denials that there are indeed people, organisations & states today which impose their understanding of Islam & it's laws upon others.

You claim the laws still apply so if the Caliphate is not around then who applies the laws Plek? And you think I'm delusional and dishonest? I have only sought to explain that it's not Islam that has the laws but people seeking to use any excuse to gain power over others, just like any politician would.

[plekhanov]

You didn't say how some interpret Islam differently Plek but clearly accused all Islamic societies of things I objected to.

Liar, in the face of your denails I have repeatedly pointed out Islam's variety throughout this thread and my initial claim was not a universal one.

 

And in every response the reasoning has been the same. Don't accuse Islam for the extreme interpretations of some of it's followers. Islam didn't make the rules but people did. I have repeated it enough times that the last time there was any Islamic law through out the world was the Caliphate, and not since.

Liar you repeatedly made the universal claims such as "Islam does not punish people for leaving Islam", "Islam has no apostasy law", "Islam does not restrict other faiths"... you didn't simply deny that the interpretations I pointed out were universal (you had no need to as I never claimed they were) instead you repeatedly denied they existed at all.

 

Every Muslim around the world should be embarrassed that some nutters in various parts of the world are doing bad things, I can see you are a clever man indeed but logic is quite alien to you.

This is what I meant by you pulling various bad things from around the world and holding all Muslims responsible for any bad act by any Muslim anywhere and think we should apologise to idiots who can't draw a distinction between extremists and the everyday normal people.

Again with the strawmen, why can't you actually responsible for what people post? Why are you so continually dishonest?

 

To suggest that you should be embarrassed by the actions of your muslim 'brothers' isn't to say that you are responsible for their actions. Any more than my being embarrassed by the actions of some United fans means I'm claiming personal responsibility for their actions.

 

You claim the laws still apply so if the Caliphate is not around then who applies the laws Plek?

What you mean aside from Islamist individuals, organisations & states that are well documented to be going round enforcing their understanding of these laws?

 

And you think I'm delusional and dishonest? I have only sought to explain that it's not Islam that has the laws but people seeking to use any excuse to gain power over others, just like any politician would.

This is too much, so now you're claiming that the likes of Khomeini, Bin Laden and the Taliban aren't influenced by Islam? :loopy Yeah because their adherence to hard-line interpretations of Islam certainly didn't serve to alienate potential supporters & create vast allied coalitions of enemies

[Bassman62]

In response to Plain Talkers tu quoque response that Christianity has a history of extreme compulsion ie. the Inquisition. I pointed out that Islam also has a history of 'convert or die' from your paedophilic warlord prophet no less:.[/i]

How many hundreds of years ago was the inquisition?

At least the western civilisations have moved on whereas Islam still acts as though it's still tales of the 'Arabian Nights' era.

[RikkiTikki]

How many hundreds of years ago was the inquisition?

At least the western civilisations have moved on whereas Islam still acts as though it's still tales of the 'Arabian Nights' era.

Exactly Bassman How can Islam be the way forward when they are so obviously hung up on pre civilisation ideologies ?? Try and argue and I will only quote circumcision amongst females and public executions/mutilations.... Islamics are heathen idiots that hold on to words tainted by the dust of time...