The new Islam megathread part 3

[lh123]

I note with amusement that the Muslims active in this thread seem singularly unable to in any way explain any way in which Islam is the way forward, preferring instead to lie to and about people and go on about the BNP. Primarily I suspect because they know that the BNP is one of the few aspects of British society that Islam compares well to.

Don't you realise that if you have to keep on comparing Islam to fascism to try and make it look good that really rather a strong indication that Islam is a pretty despicable ideology?

 

If you want to impress us explain how Islam is better than say for example the form of secular liberal democratic ideology Norwegian society is based upon.

 

 

Hi,

 

Let's be clear on one point. Nowadays, there are NO state which can be qualified as islamic states. Even if you take Saudi Arabia, they are in no way a muslim state, since they don't apply the sharia code properly (for exemple on adultery law, there has to be 4 witnesses who have actually seen the sexual act being performed which makes it almost impossible to prove, or a full confession made by the adulterer 3 times, which I don't really know who would do that anyway), and they apply their code of punishment only on the poors. We all know that the millionnaire sheikhs go gambling in casinos, clubbing, drink alcohol... without being persecuted...

 

 

Anyway, the initial question seems to me wrong. Why? Because no one is forced to convert to Islam, and people, even under an islamic caliphate would still be able to keep their religion, and have their private matters like inheritance, marriage, divorces, burials... judged in their own courts, according to their own religious beliefs.

So, if one is not appealed by becoming a muslim, he doesn't have to become one.

 

 

If I want to answer the question though, I would note a few good reasons to consider Islam as a way to bring society forward:

 

1) the interest of the society as a whole is more important than the interest of individuals.

Now, that is very interesting, specially for our society of individualism. We no longer know our neighbours, if we see someone being attacked in the street, we are likely to keep walking and not help out, we place our old parents into horrendous old people's "homes", we want the right to be able to be drunk on saturday nights on the streets even if that means we become public dangers, we want the right of wearing miniskirts showing everything and more even if that makes us become easy preys for sexual predators.......

Islam may seem an anti-democratic religion, but it contains a system of laws who actually protect the people, give boundaries that, if not trespassed, creates a haven of peace because it stops crimes, it stops injustice, and puts everybody from the most simple man to the king under one and only rule: God's rules.

 

2) work is a form of worship. In another hadith, it states that works is half of the faith.

Islam would bring up a country of hard working people. Men and women can both work in Islam, the first wife of the Prophet Muhammad was also his boss, and she was a very wealthy and successful business woman.

However, it is upon the man solely to put a roof over his family's head, to pay the bills, to clothe and feed his family.

How many working mothers would love to stay at home, look after their children and see them growing, do activities for themselves such as studying, charity work, and why not creating their own home business...

All the women who would willingly stay at home would mean more jobs for men, hence less unemployment.

And women who want to go out working would do it without pressure since they know this is not required from them.

 

 

3)The punishments that faces the law breaker are in themselves dissuasive, and very few people would be willing to commit a crime and risk it.

 

Let's take this appalling case of baby Peter. How many years have had those who were torturing this child? Why such people should ever be released?

We all know that paedophiles commit their crimes again after being released, so do rapists and murderers, and robbers.

What if there was a law which states that the robber has to have his hand chopped on the public place?

Who the hell would want to rob again after knowing what he risks if being caught??? Only someone mad, or who doesn't value his life much...

So, yes, in certain cases, for the sake of a peaceful and not violent society, some crimes must be punished in such a way that one will think twice before raping, stealing or abusing a kid.

 

 

4) Seeking knowledge.

 

Islam started with one word: "Iqra! Iqra bismi rabbika": "Read! Read by the name of your Lord".

Everybody in Islam has the right and the duty to learn, whether man or woman, old or young, little boys or little girls...

Islam is a religion to be understood and not followed like sheeps. We can question it. We can explore science, mathematics, physics, astronomy without fear (not like for the christians).

A muslim can work hand in hand with a jew or a christian to make the worl a better place (like in the islamic golden age).

Everybody has the right to education, and there is no gender superior to the other in that aspect.

There is a famous report that once, one of the caliphs of Islam (I believe it was Omar) was giving a speech in an assembly and at one point he talked about the dowry and said he wanted to fix a price because women were exagerating in what they were asking. An old woman got up and told the caliph that if God had given women this right of a dowry without fixing a limit, then him Omar the caliph had no right to set a limit.

What did Omar do? He told the old woman: By God you are right, for no man has the right to change God's laws.

This proves that anyone can express his voice when needed, and a woman can well be right over even the ruler of an empire.

 

 

If you want more points, I can post more, there is so much to say...

[plekhanov]

Name the religion which existed pre-cilivisation?

Any and all religions followed in societies which had yet to develop into highly complex cultures, settled in towns with an agricultural base. Relatively contemporary examples would include religions followed by aboriginal Australian groups, amazonian indians and nomadic tribes the world over.

 

You can't say I'm wrong but then give no answer,

Err yes I can and I just did. My post was intended to prompt you to actually go and look up the definition of 'civilization', realise how wrong you were and retract your claim. I obviously over estimated your willingness to actually try to learn anything.

 

no wonder Tab1 is so frustrated with you.

tab1 is frustrated because I'm using reason, evidence and an ability to read and respond to what people actually post to kick his lying arse.

[Mr Goose]

Hi,

 

Let's be clear on one point. Nowadays, there are NO state which can be qualified as islamic states. Even if you take Saudi Arabia, they are in no way a muslim state, since they don't apply the sharia code properly (for exemple on adultery law, there has to be 4 witnesses who have actually seen the sexual act being performed which makes it almost impossible to prove, or a full confession made by the adulterer 3 times, which I don't really know who would do that anyway), and they apply their code of punishment only on the poors. We all know that the millionnaire sheikhs go gambling in casinos, clubbing, drink alcohol... without being persecuted...

 

.....

...

 

 

I have heard this line before when I have done public events with Islamic groups. What it is actually saying is that

 

"where islamic religious leaders are able to exercise political control in a country, that country tends to turn towards a closed, oppresive regime.. we are actually embarrased and frustrated that we cannot point to a progressive, happy, open, moral,islamic state"

[lh123]

I have heard this line before when I have done public events with Islamic groups. What it is actually saying is that

 

"where islamic religious leaders are able to exercise political control in a country, that country tends to turn towards a closed, oppresive regime.. we are actually embarrased and frustrated that we cannot point to a progressive, happy, open, moral,islamic state"

 

 

 

Hi,

 

Prophet Mohammad in an authentic hadith has been reported to have said that at the end of the times, muslims will be ruled by unjust rulers.

A lot of the people who label themselves as "muslims" haven't even read the Quran.

A lot of islamic scholars nowadays are just serving the government in place by emiting fatwas which allow the upper class to rule the people with an iron fist (they themselves do not follow what these "scholars" have decreted).

Really, one has to go back to the unbiased sources to learn properly what Islam is.

As a revert myself, I can tell you that if I had known the muslims before the religion of Islam, I would probably never have converted.

[onetwo07]

You need to ask RIKKITIKKI, I was responding to his post, 473. He hasn't answered my post yet, so don't hold your breath.

 

Sorry, got the wrong end of the stick!

[Mr Goose]

Hi,

 

Prophet Mohammad in an authentic hadith has been reported to have said that at the end of the times, muslims will be ruled by unjust rulers.

A lot of the people who label themselves as "muslims" haven't even read the Quran..

 

A point, but I still think if Islam was the way to a "better world" people could point to where it works when given power.

 

Just to clarify, I am not anti Islam, I am anti all political religious power. Just look at pre renaissance europe to see what happens when religion is given power - and this it what it appears to be like still in the countries where islam holds yoke

 

- so we see book burnings, crap rights for women, dogma (anti gay), anti science (eg anti teaching of evolution) and religious legal approaches - just as it was in europe

 

 

As a test (and think about this one) do you accept the theory of evolotion and did you before you reconverted?

[plekhanov]

Hi,

 

Let's be clear on one point. Nowadays, there are NO state which can be qualified as islamic states. Even if you take Saudi Arabia, they are in no way a muslim state, since they don't apply the sharia code properly (for exemple on adultery law, there has to be 4 witnesses who have actually seen the sexual act being performed which makes it almost impossible to prove, or a full confession made by the adulterer 3 times, which I don't really know who would do that anyway), and they apply their code of punishment only on the poors. We all know that the millionnaire sheikhs go gambling in casinos, clubbing, drink alcohol... without being persecuted...

Correction there is no state which qualifies for your no true scotsman definition of an Islamic state.

 

Unless you can explain to use why you and you alone decide what is and isn't an Islamic state why should we accept your interpretation of one over that over the mullahs in Iran, Saudi, Afghanistan...?

 

Anyway, the initial question seems to me wrong. Why? Because no one is forced to convert to Islam, and people, even under an islamic caliphate would still be able to keep their religion, and have their private matters like inheritance, marriage, divorces, burials... judged in their own courts, according to their own religious beliefs.

So, if one is not appealed by becoming a muslim, he doesn't have to become one.

Which initial question is this?

 

Are you seriously claiming that no one has ever been forced to convert to Islam? If not then you should really have chosen your language more carefully.

 

As for the much vaunted religius tolerance under the Cahliphate, this applied to all religions did it, inclusive of non-monotheistic ones? Did non-muslims have all the rights of muslims? Did they pay the same taxes as muslims? Were they free to evangelise in public in the way people are free to here?

 

If I want to answer the question though, I would note a few good reasons to consider Islam as a way to bring society forward:

 

1) the interest of the society as a whole is more important than the interest of individuals.

Now, that is very interesting, specially for our society of individualism. We no longer know our neighbours, if we see someone being attacked in the street, we are likely to keep walking and not help out, we place our old parents into horrendous old people's "homes", we want the right to be able to be drunk on saturday nights on the streets even if that means we become public dangers, we want the right of wearing miniskirts showing everything and more even if that makes us become easy preys for sexual predators.......

Islam may seem an anti-democratic religion, but it contains a system of laws who actually protect the people, give boundaries that, if not trespassed, creates a haven of peace because it stops crimes, it stops injustice, and puts everybody from the most simple man to the king under one and only rule: God's rules.

Utopian nonsense like this full of assertions with no evidence is hardly persuasive when reality contradicts it so fundamentally. If Islam is so great then why is the flow of asylum seekers and immigration in general from Islamic countries to non-Islamic countries and not the other way round? Why are countries like Norway the best to live in by almost any measure of human progress?

 

Also how exactly does a women not covering her legs make her ‘easy preys for sexual predators’? If anything a women not encumbered by awkward robes will be more able to escape an assailant. Also given the appalling treatment of rape victims in so many Islamic countries I really don’t think it’s smart of you to bring up the issue.

 

2) work is a form of worship. In another hadith, it states that works is half of the faith.

Islam would bring up a country of hard working people. Men and women can both work in Islam, the first wife of the Prophet Muhammad was also his boss, and she was a very wealthy and successful business woman.

However, it is upon the man solely to put a roof over his family's head, to pay the bills, to clothe and feed his family.

How many working mothers would love to stay at home, look after their children and see them growing, do activities for themselves such as studying, charity work, and why not creating their own home business...

All the women who would willingly stay at home would mean more jobs for men, hence less unemployment.

And women who want to go out working would do it without pressure since they know this is not required from them.

Western women aren’t required to work my own mother didn’t, I have numerous female friends who aren’t working right now in order to concentrate on their children. Thing is they want to they can though and may even do so outside the house.

 

This whole point is nothing but an attempt to put a gloss on the appalling misogyny inherent in Islam, by bizarrely trying to pretend that what you seem to regard as a prohibition on married women working outside the home would increase rather than drastically decrease the option available to women.

 

3)The punishments that faces the law breaker are in themselves dissuasive, and very few people would be willing to commit a crime and risk it.

 

Let's take this appalling case of baby Peter. How many years have had those who were torturing this child? Why such people should ever be released?

We all know that paedophiles commit their crimes again after being released, so do rapists and murderers, and robbers.

What if there was a law which states that the robber has to have his hand chopped on the public place?

Who the hell would want to rob again after knowing what he risks if being caught??? Only someone mad, or who doesn't value his life much...

So, yes, in certain cases, for the sake of a peaceful and not violent society, some crimes must be punished in such a way that one will think twice before raping, stealing or abusing a kid.

I see a lot of grand assertions here and no evidence to support them. Can you provide any actual evidence that any Islamic society is as free from violence as Norway for example?

 

You simply reeling off a bunch of Islamist dogma and then arbitrarily declaring it would make our society better in spite of all the evidence that Islamic societies are so much worse than ours. Is as wholly unconvincing as a Communist reeling off his dogma and then arbitrarily declaring it would make our society better in spite of all the evidence that communist societies were so much worse.

 

4) Seeking knowledge.

 

Islam started with one word: "Iqra! Iqra bismi rabbika": "Read! Read by the name of your Lord".

Everybody in Islam has the right and the duty to learn, whether man or woman, old or young, little boys or little girls...

Islam is a religion to be understood and not followed like sheeps. We can question it. We can explore science, mathematics, physics, astronomy without fear (not like for the christians).

A muslim can work hand in hand with a jew or a christian to make the worl a better place (like in the islamic golden age).

Everybody has the right to education, and there is no gender superior to the other in that aspect.

There is a famous report that once, one of the caliphs of Islam (I believe it was Omar) was giving a speech in an assembly and at one point he talked about the dowry and said he wanted to fix a price because women were exagerating in what they were asking. An old woman got up and told the caliph that if God had given women this right of a dowry without fixing a limit, then him Omar the caliph had no right to set a limit.

What did Omar do? He told the old woman: By God you are right, for no man has the right to change God's laws.

This proves that anyone can express his voice when needed, and a woman can well be right over even the ruler of an empire.

Oh my, yeah cause Islam has such a fantastic record of knowledge creation. Islamic societies for example invented modern chemistry, physics, developed the theory of evolution, invented steam power, the motor car, powered flight, space travel and of course computers and the internet which is how we’re able to have this conversation right now.

 

In contrast western civilisation is an intellectual backwater so stagnant that it has to keep on looking back upon a ‘golden age’ many centuries ago to try and boost its self esteem in the face of the towering intellectual achievements of the Islamic world

 

If you want more points, I can post more, there is so much to say...

If it's as hilariously wrong headed as boasting about Islam's contribution to knowledge in contrast to the West I really can't wait.

[chuffinel]

They're not closed to new ideas: they've just executed a British hostage because the UK won't release a bile spouting muslim radical.

 

Think that the word murder is more appropriate.

"Execution" has a whiff of legality.

[lh123]

A point, but I still think if Islam was the way to a "better world" people could point to where it works when given power.

 

Just to clarify, I am not anti Islam, I am anti all political religious power. Just look at pre renaissance europe to see what happens when religion is given power - and this it what it appears to be like still in the countries where islam holds yoke

 

- so we see book burnings, crap rights for women, dogma (anti gay), anti science (eg anti teaching of evolution) and religious legal approaches - just as it was in europe

 

 

As a test (and think about this one) do you accept the theory of evolotion and did you before you reconverted?

 

 

 

I appreciate your posts, because you write your opinions and beliefs without any hatred, and that's always a pleasure to answer to an intelligent post .

 

When the prophet Mohammad passed away, there were 4 caliphs who ruled the entire muslim empire. A 100 years after his death, muslims were at the head of a vast empire accross 3 continents, and it was far from being a backwards society, it was on the contrary very flourishing, with science, arts, medicine, philosophy, whilst the christian europe was still struggling in the dark ages.

In Islam, the best of muslims are considered to be the 3 generations following the prophet's death.

So, we can see that the period when Islam was the strongest, the knowledge and science was at its peak.

When the muslim rulers started to become unjust and forgetful about God's laws, the muslim empire weakened and let itself absorbed by the inquisition and crusades.

 

 

Before reconverting, I was a practising jew living in Israel, so I already had strong beliefs and laws dictating my life.

Darwin's theory is just as its name states: a theory.

That leaves enough room for the pros and cons, the flaws and what appears to make sense.

To me, his theory doesn't reflect the truth since I believe God has created a man and a woman and that we all come from this couple Adam and Eve.

 

This will be an evidence for me and the theory of creationnism for you, the same way Darwin's work stays for me a theory and not an evidence.

[lh123]

Correction there is no state which qualifies for your no true scotsman definition of an Islamic state.

 

Unless you can explain to use why you and you alone decide what is and isn't an Islamic state why should we accept your interpretation of one over that over the mullahs in Iran, Saudi, Afghanistan...?

 

 

Which initial question is this?

 

Are you seriously claiming that no one has ever been forced to convert to Islam? If not then you should really have chosen your language more carefully.

 

As for the much vaunted religius tolerance under the Cahliphate, this applied to all religions did it, inclusive of non-monotheistic ones? Did non-muslims have all the rights of muslims? Did they pay the same taxes as muslims? Were they free to evangelise in public in the way people are free to here?

 

 

Utopian nonsense like this full of assertions with no evidence is hardly persuasive when reality contradicts it so fundamentally. If Islam is so great then why is the flow of asylum seekers and immigration in general from Islamic countries to non-Islamic countries and not the other way round? Why are countries like Norway the best to live in by almost any measure of human progress?

 

Also how exactly does a women not covering her legs make her ‘easy preys for sexual predators’? If anything a women not encumbered by awkward robes will be more able to escape an assailant. Also given the appalling treatment of rape victims in so many Islamic countries I really don’t think it’s smart of you to bring up the issue.

 

 

Western women aren’t required to work my own mother didn’t, I have numerous female friends who aren’t working right now in order to concentrate on their children. Thing is they want to they can though and may even do so outside the house.

 

This whole point is nothing but an attempt to put a gloss on the appalling misogyny inherent in Islam, by bizarrely trying to pretend that what you seem to regard as a prohibition on married women working outside the home would increase rather than drastically decrease the option available to women.

 

 

I see a lot of grand assertions here and no evidence to support them. Can you provide any actual evidence that any Islamic society is as free from violence as Norway for example?

 

You simply reeling off a bunch of Islamist dogma and then arbitrarily declaring it would make our society better in spite of all the evidence that Islamic societies are so much worse than ours. Is as wholly unconvincing as a Communist reeling off his dogma and then arbitrarily declaring it would make our society better in spite of all the evidence that communist societies were so much worse.

 

 

Oh my, yeah cause Islam has such a fantastic record of knowledge creation. Islamic societies for example invented modern chemistry, physics, developed the theory of evolution, invented steam power, the motor car, powered flight, space travel and of course computers and the internet which is how we’re able to have this conversation right now.

 

In contrast western civilisation is an intellectual backwater so stagnant that it has to keep on looking back upon a ‘golden age’ many centuries ago to try and boost its self esteem in the face of the towering intellectual achievements of the Islamic world

 

 

If it's as hilariously wrong headed as boasting about Islam's contribution to knowledge in contrast to the West I really can't wait.

 

 

 

I am not interested in debating with someone who does not bring anything to the conversation. In many ways you have distorted what i initially wrote.

if you want a glimpse of what the islamic society has brought to the western world, I refer you a book "1001 inventions, Muslim heritage in our world".

I purchased it after seing an exposition in London last year, exposition made by both muslims and non muslims.

As for me saying that the states ruled by muslims are not islamic, this is not my own thought, but what true and unbiased scholars also think.