The new Islam megathread part 3

[flamingjimmy]

I can condemn it along with Millions of other Muslims and non Muslims Jimmy, it isn't Islam that says to them they must do that. Political masters of an idiot fringe have found this to work in their favour and have used it to effect against opponents, including Muslims.

This is all probably true, and I do believe a large part of it is cultural. According to many Islamic scholars Islam does not justify the actions of these people, but the fact remains that according to some the Quran does justify martyrdom which they interpret as suicide bombing, and I truly believe that a great many of these people wouldn't blow themselves up for this if they weren't Muslims. Do you agree with the that sentence?

 

The inference is drawn by Islamophobes that Islam teaches such actions and that Muslims at large support it, which is rubbish. Pakistan is a country being targeted by these nutters and it's the Muslims who are the victims, so affirming the political element of the problem rather than a religious one.

I agree with the first half of this paragraph, as for the second:The problems in Pakistan are political and religious, of course they are! I'm not the one pretending that one of these issues doesn't exist, remember you're not arguing with thebangingman!

[tab1]

This is all probably true, and I do believe a large part of it is cultural. According to many Islamic scholars Islam does not justify the actions of these people, but the fact remains that according to some the Quran does justify martyrdom which they interpret as suicide bombing, and I truly believe that a great many of these people wouldn't blow themselves up for this if they weren't Muslims. Do you agree with the that sentence?

I would have agreed with you, were it not for the fact that every soldier is trained to give his life when ordered. Those nutters are in a war situation and they probably have been brainwashed and trained into doing things that no normal sane person would even contemplate doing. My only objection is that Islam does not ask them to take innocent life but their commanders do, as do commanders of any army when fighting a tactical battle.

 

I agree with the first half of this paragraph, as for the second:The problems in Pakistan are political and religious, of course they are! I'm not the one pretending that one of these issues doesn't exist, remember you're not arguing with thebangingman!

The problem in Pakistan is a spill over of the Afghanistan problem and largely a localised issue to the Pushtoon region. These guys are tribal in culture and custom, and they differ from the rest of Pakistan. To label all Muslims or even all Pakistanis as the same is unfair. You may read up for yourself that the issue is serious enough to get the army fighting the local militia, and both sides Muslim.

[Bassman62]

You may read up for yourself that the issue is serious enough to get the army fighting the local militia, and both sides Muslim.

The army are fighting due to pressure applied by the US after the Pakistani governments cowardly surrender of the Swat valley to the Taleban.

[flamingjimmy]

I would have agreed with you, were it not for the fact that every soldier is trained to give his life when ordered. Those nutters are in a war situation and they probably have been brainwashed and trained into doing things that no normal sane person would even contemplate doing. My only objection is that Islam does not ask them to take innocent life but their commanders do, as do commanders of any army when fighting a tactical battle.

Yes, you're right, their commanders are the ones telling them to do these things, but their commanders also tell them that Islam does ask them to take innocent lives (or that the lives aren't innocent, either way same result).

 

Whether the Quran does actually justify these things or not is a moot point because it is clear that it can easily be presented in such a way to would be suicide bombers that they wholeheartedly believe that they are being righteous and doing god's will. For this reason I still contend that most of them (if not all) wouldn't do it if they weren't Muslims.

 

What about this assertion then?

It is clearly a lot easier for evil men to convince young men to blow themselves up and kill innocent people (become suicide-bombers) if these young men are devout Muslims.

 

Or this one:

Most Muslims think the Quran does not justify these acts, some Muslims do, if none of these people considered the Quran to be the revealed word of god (were not Muslims) there would be no religious justification for these acts and it would be much harder for people to convince young men to become suicide bombers.

[Plain Talker]

Yes, you're right, their commanders are the ones telling them to do these things, but their commanders also tell them that Islam does ask them to take innocent lives (or that the lives aren't innocent, either way same result).

 

Whether the Quran does actually justify these things or not is a moot point because it is clear that it can easily be presented in such a way to would be suicide bombers that they wholeheartedly believe that they are being righteous and doing god's will. For this reason I still contend that most of them (if not all) wouldn't do it if they weren't Muslims.

 

What about this assertion then?

It is clearly a lot easier for evil men to convince young men to blow themselves up and kill innocent people (become suicide-bombers) if these young men are devout Muslims.

 

Or this one:

Most Muslims think the Quran does not justify these acts, some Muslims do, if none of these people considered the Quran to be the revealed word of god (were not Muslims) there would be no religious justification for these acts and it would be much harder for people to convince young men to become suicide bombers.

 

it is a sorry state of affairs that these scholars are able to preach that rubbish. As I have said so many times, the kids they preach this rubbish to are too gullible to reason over what has been said.

 

I have always contended that "If this bombing is so attractive, why aren't the scholars leading from the front, and the first to seize this 'paradise', rather than leading from the back, pushing the gullible into comitting these atrocities?"

[tab1]

Yes, you're right, their commanders are the ones telling them to do these things, but their commanders also tell them that Islam does ask them to take innocent lives (or that the lives aren't innocent, either way same result).

As I said earlier the interpretation that a commander may be using religion to persuade is your own Jimmy, and it happens to be far from reality. As I said earlier, the political situation has worsened to one of war and you may recall our own commanders using reasons like different rules applying in wartime situations and talk of heat of battle and such like. The Muslims youth brainwashed to commit suicide are convinced by pointing to the atrocities committed against them and their people and rather than 72 virgins promised, a sense of vengeance is instilled into them. Not unlike the soldiers of the USA who to this day believe they are in Iraq to avenge the twin towers attack. Iraq had nothing to do with it but that’s how brainwashing works.

 

I am sure you can point to many an atrocity committed by people of various religions but each one has a reason behind it also than just religion as the cause. The Japanese had their suicide volunteers and Sri Lankans theirs and the Muslims also, and in each case people committing these acts were convinced they were in a war and were doing it for their people rather than their God. We can attribute all sorts of things to them and say that they wouldn’t do it if they weren’t Muslims. I contend that they wouldn’t do it if we hadn’t given them a cause to fight for.

I hope it answers your question Jimmy, I have to out now but be back later:thumbsup:

[flamingjimmy]

As I said earlier the interpretation that a commander may be using religion to persuade is your own Jimmy, and it happens to be far from reality.

Where's the *jaw dropped right to the floor* smiley! Do you really believe that? That's denial at it's worst

 

There's pretty much no point in debating this with you if you're going to keep your head in the sand so I think I'm done, I'll let you get back to the cat fight with your buddies.

[tab1]

Where's the *jaw dropped right to the floor* smiley! Do you really believe that? That's denial at it's worst

 

There's pretty much no point in debating this with you if you're going to keep your head in the sand so I think I'm done, I'll let you get back to the cat fight with your buddies.

I am disappointed but not surprised at that reaction Jimmy, as it explains your preconceived ideas of Islam and how people come to commit such horrendous acts of terror. You want to blame religion and wish to create scenarios to fit your argument. Reality points to simple human emotions like greivences and desire for revenge, with easily established cause and effect.

It isn't as simple minded as, "their religion telling them so", however, if you don't wish to consider an opposing opinion then you are right, there is really no point in continuing debate.

[flamingjimmy]

I am disappointed but not surprised at that reaction Jimmy, as it explains your preconceived ideas of Islam and how people come to commit such horrendous acts of terror. You want to blame religion and wish to create scenarios to fit your argument. Reality points to simple human emotions like greivences and desire for revenge, with easily established cause and effect.

It isn't as simple minded as, "their religion telling them so", however, if you don't wish to consider an opposing opinion then you are right, there is really no point in continuing debate.

Yet again tab1 you seem to think you are arguing with someone else, I do not hold a single one of the views you have attributed to me in this post, not one.

 

I was very careful with the wording of my two main assertions

 

It is clearly a lot easier for evil men to convince young men to blow themselves up and kill innocent people (become suicide-bombers) if these young men are devout Muslims.

 

Or this one:

Most Muslims think the Quran does not justify these acts, some Muslims do, if none of these people considered the Quran to be the revealed word of god (were not Muslims) there would be no religious justification for these acts and it would be much harder for people to convince young men to become suicide bombers.

 

How about you address those instead of strawmanning me?

 

And can you please get it into your head that I am not saying that Islam is entirely to blame for suicide bombing!

 

Once again for clarity, if you argue against that position, you're not actually arguing against me or the points I've made.

[tab1]

It is clearly a lot easier for evil men to convince young men to blow themselves up and kill innocent people (become suicide-bombers) if these young men are devout Muslims.

If they are devout Muslims then the task is that much harder as they would understand their religion forbids such acts. It’s the idiots fitting the Richard Reed mentality of little knowledge and willing to do anything for teacher’s approval that become willing sacrificial lambs. As PT already said the blame goes to the unscrupulous commanders using such gullible idiots to cause death and destruction. More devout the Muslim, the less chance of such stupidity of terrorism.

 

Or this one:

Most Muslims think the Quran does not justify these acts, some Muslims do, if none of these people considered the Quran to be the revealed word of god (were not Muslims) there would be no religious justification for these acts and it would be much harder for people to convince young men to become suicide bombers.

Again, the same thing I have repeated many a times, there is no justification in Qur’an for slaughter of the innocents. No one can misinterpret something that doesn’t exist.

 

The method used is as I explained before, that a sense of grievance is instilled in the young minds. The fact Islam is a communal way of life, and the young, would be terrorists, are taught that they are doing something good for their community by making the ultimate sacrifice. This is why I compared their attitude with soldiers going to battle and willing to die for their country. They perceive themselves as avenging the dishonour and humiliation of their people. That sense of defending their community is probably the only connection to Islam and nothing written within the pages of the Qur’an that instructs them to do such a thing. The only link is that Islam does praise people who do good for others and this by extension is used to imply justification where it was never intended. Every religion tells people to be good and do good for others. In Islam however a Martyr is someone who dies in a legitimate battle for wellbeing of his Islamic community, or interpreted as giving his life for Islam, but not whilst breaking the basic law of Islam by killing innocent people. Taking of innocent life is clearly forbidden

 

All normal people disagree with terrorism but things done to Muslims in Afghanistan with indiscriminate bombings villages, funerals and wedding parties, or Invasion and destruction of Iraqi civil society, or the humiliation of the Palestinians has guaranteed a steady supply of willing recruits. Take away the cause of grievance and we take away their recruiting sergeant. Justification is not in the Qur'an but in what those people perceive as an injustice brought upon them.