retep Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 If they are devout Muslims then the task is that much harder as they would understand their religion forbids such acts. It’s the idiots fitting the Richard Reed mentality of little knowledge and willing to do anything for teacher’s approval that become willing sacrificial lambs. As PT already said the blame goes to the unscrupulous commanders using such gullible idiots to cause death and destruction. More devout the Muslim, the less chance of such stupidity of terrorism. Again, the same thing I have repeated many a times, there is no justification in Qur’an for slaughter of the innocents. No one can misinterpret something that doesn’t exist. The method used is as I explained before, that a sense of grievance is instilled in the young minds. The fact Islam is a communal way of life, and the young, would be terrorists, are taught that they are doing something good for their community by making the ultimate sacrifice. This is why I compared their attitude with soldiers going to battle and willing to die for their country. They perceive themselves as avenging the dishonour and humiliation of their people. That sense of defending their community is probably the only connection to Islam and nothing written within the pages of the Qur’an that instructs them to do such a thing. The only link is that Islam does praise people who do good for others and this by extension is used to imply justification where it was never intended. Every religion tells people to be good and do good for others. In Islam however a Martyr is someone who dies in a legitimate battle for wellbeing of his Islamic community, or interpreted as giving his life for Islam, but not whilst breaking the basic law of Islam by killing innocent people. Taking of innocent life is clearly forbidden All normal people disagree with terrorism but things done to Muslims in Afghanistan with indiscriminate bombings villages, funerals and wedding parties,[/ or Invasion and destruction of Iraqi civil society, or the humiliation of the Palestinians has guaranteed a steady supply of willing recruits. Take away the cause of grievance and we take away their recruiting sergeant. Justification is not in the Qur'an but in what those people perceive as an injustice brought upon them. Bombings done to muslims by muslims? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tab1 Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 Bombings done to muslims by muslims?Thank you retwerp, you have actually, albeit inadvertently, answered the question yourself and the very point I was making. It isn't about kill the infidel and Muslims against the West, but a political struggle for power. You will do well to recognise the American nor the British would get a look in if it wasn't for the support by the Muslims. The Muslims that support our standpoint are the ones bearing the brunt of terrorist atrocities and you can spout your rubbish blaming all Islam:rolleyes: I have never said there are no Muslim terrorists but they are not terrorists because they are Muslims. That is what you retep and your ilk are saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingjimmy Posted June 13, 2009 Share Posted June 13, 2009 If they are devout Muslims then the task is that much harder as they would understand their religion forbids such acts. It’s the idiots fitting the Richard Reed mentality of little knowledge and willing to do anything for teacher’s approval that become willing sacrificial lambs. As PT already said the blame goes to the unscrupulous commanders using such gullible idiots to cause death and destruction. More devout the Muslim, the less chance of such stupidity of terrorism. *fallacy alert* No true Scotsman eh tab? If only you were right. The fact is though that those who commit these acts consider themselves to be absolutely devout, and think that what they are doing is justified by the Quran. It happens, take your head out of the sand. Again, the same thing I have repeated many a times, there is no justification in Qur’an for slaughter of the innocents. No one can misinterpret something that doesn’t exist. Tell that to Al Qaeda or Hamas, their clerics would vehemently disagree with you about what the Quran does and doesn't justify. Why is their interpretation less valid than yours? Here's a snippet from a pretty decent article that really wasn't hard to find, this information is out there tab, if you take your head out of the sand for a few minutes perhaps you'll read it? "Today's Al-Qaeda splinter and successor groups and their fellow travelers use the writings of Ibn Taymiya and those influenced by him. The linkage is concrete. They often cite the same Qur'anic passages and hadith that justified the violent jihad of the seventh century. Religious clerics issue fatwas citing them. Perhaps the most prominent of these is Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi,[71] who has built upon such interpretations to justify suicide bombing, other acts of terrorism, and the murder of civilians, all in the cause of jihad. He has called suicide bombing a supreme form of jihad for the sake of God and, therefore, religiously legitimate.[72] Those who object to his ideas he labels as agents of ignorance.[73] While he argues that the Qur'an does not allow attacks against the innocent,[74] his definition of innocence is so narrow as to obviate such assurances. September 11 hijacker Muhammad Atta's last will and testament[75] shows how deep such interpretations of jihad have penetrated Muslim life as his verbiage and instructions for burial showed how he believed himself a good Muslim, even as he participated in an event which murdered almost 3,000 civilians." Suicide bombing in the Muslim world cannot be separated from religion. Its perpetrators believe jihad to be synonymous with war and mandate Muslims to strike not only at non-Muslims but also at co-religionists deemed insufficiently loyal to their radical cause. The ideological basis of such an interpretation has deep roots in Islamic theology, but it came to prominence with the twentieth-century rise of Muslim Brotherhood theorists such as Banna and Qutb and was further developed by their successors. While much of the exegesis developed out of Sunni jurisprudence, the Islamic Republic in Iran encouraged the phenomenon. Many of Tehran's proxy groups embraced the tactic. It is fashionable among Western analysts and academics to explain away suicide bombing with discussion of "root causes" that omit religion. Many cite a history of exploitation by Western powers, Israel's existence, government oppression, poverty, lack of education, and alienation as reasons why desperate individuals decide to blow themselves up to murder others. But attention to suicide bombers' own justifications suggest that, for them, Islam and its call for jihad is the primary motivation." http://www.meforum.org/1003/the-religious-foundations-of-suicide-bombings#_ftn75 The very people who commit these horrific attacks claim religious justification. It's not like I've just made it up, these guys make videos about how awesome they think they are for being a martyr. Are you going to deny all this too? The method used is as I explained before, that a sense of grievance is instilled in the young minds. The fact Islam is a communal way of life, and the young, would be terrorists, are taught that they are doing something good for their community by making the ultimate sacrifice. This is why I compared their attitude with soldiers going to battle and willing to die for their country. They perceive themselves as avenging the dishonour and humiliation of their people. That sense of defending their community is probably the only connection to Islam and nothing written within the pages of the Qur’an that instructs them to do such a thing. The only link is that Islam does praise people who do good for others and this by extension is used to imply justification where it was never intended. Every religion tells people to be good and do good for others. In Islam however a Martyr is someone who dies in a legitimate battle for wellbeing of his Islamic community, or interpreted as giving his life for Islam, but not whilst breaking the basic law of Islam by killing innocent people. Taking of innocent life is clearly forbidden Still running with the no true Scotsman fallacy eh? Still doesn't work, it's unhealthy how willing you are to close your eyes when you see something you don't like. All normal people disagree with terrorism but things done to Muslims in Afghanistan with indiscriminate bombings villages, funerals and wedding parties, or Invasion and destruction of Iraqi civil society, or the humiliation of the Palestinians has guaranteed a steady supply of willing recruits. Take away the cause of grievance and we take away their recruiting sergeant. Justification is not in the Qur'an but in what those people perceive as an injustice brought upon them. No evidence for this, if this is true, then why do they keep blowing each other up as well as us and the Americans? http://blog.cleanenergy.org/files/2009/04/head-in-sand.jpg stop it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tab1 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 *fallacy alert* No true Scotsman eh tab? If only you were right. The fact is though that those who commit these acts consider themselves to be absolutely devout, and think that what they are doing is justified by the Quran. It happens, take your head out of the sand. What utter nonsense Jimmy! What fact? and how do you know what was in the mind of a terrorist before he blew himself up? Don’t make up rubbish please. No one does anything without a reason, and they have been handed a cause to fight for, why can't you get that through the anti Islam barriers in your head? I can see that was a waste of time trying to explain things to you. If you spend more time researching and understanding the subject for yourself rather than run to the nearest anti Islam site for someone else’s opinions to adopt, we may have a meaningful discussion. It is no good to accuse others of it and yet remain in denial yourself. You and a great many others are in denial of any wrong doing perpetrated by the West, and simply look for excuses to justify Islam as the problem. Why do you ignore cause and effect? Please don’t preach Islam to me, when you have shown such blatant ignorance of Islam. What proof are you bringing to the debate that Islam teaches them to be suicide bombers, where is the verse of the Qur’an? The quoted text from articles by Islamophobes like David Bukay is a surprise for me, as I had you down for a more balanced debater, but apparently not. I wrote this Originally Posted by tab1 All normal people disagree with terrorism but things done to Muslims in Afghanistan with indiscriminate bombings villages, funerals and wedding parties, or Invasion and destruction of Iraqi civil society, or the humiliation of the Palestinians has guaranteed a steady supply of willing recruits. Take away the cause of grievance and we take away their recruiting sergeant. Justification is not in the Qur'an but in what those people perceive as an injustice brought upon them. And your response to it was that No evidence for this, if this is true, then why do they keep blowing each other up as well as us and the Americans?It's not me who has his head in the sand Jimmy, you need an urgent reality check. I am done wasting my time on this:thumbsup: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingjimmy Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 What utter nonsense Jimmy! What fact? and how do you know what was in the mind of a terrorist before he blew himself up? Don’t make up rubbish please. No one does anything without a reason, and they have been handed a cause to fight for, why can't you get that through the anti Islam barriers in your head? I am not making it up: there are Muslim theologians and clerics who think Islam justifies suicide bombing For one quick example, here you go, the product of 2 minutes on google: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/3875119.stm SHEIKH YUSEF AL-QARADAWI (Qatar University) "It's not suicide, it is martyrdom in the name of God, Islamic theologians and jurisprudents have debated this issue. Referring to it as a form of jihad, under the title of jeopardising the life of the mujahideen. It is allowed to jeopardise your soul and cross the path of the enemy and be killed... Israeli women are not like women in our society because Israeli women are militarised. Secondly, I consider this type of martyrdom operation as indication of justice of Allah almighty. Allah is just. Through his infinite wisdom he has given the weak what the strong do not possess and that is the ability to turn their bodies into bombs like the Palestinians do... f the Iraqis can confront the enemy, there is no need for these acts of martyrdom. If they don't have the means, acts of martyrdom are allowed. I didn't say that the Iraqis cannot, it depends on their need." Oh by the way is the BBC an islamophobic hate site too? And this guy's even got his own TV show apparently! EDIT: A little more digging reveals that this guy is actually quite prominent in the Muslim world, so much so that he has twice been offered the directorship of the Muslim Bortherhood, so hardly a fringe crackpot then. I can see that was a waste of time trying to explain things to you. If you spend more time researching and understanding the subject for yourself rather than run to the nearest anti Islam site for someone else’s opinions to adopt, we may have a meaningful discussion. It is no good to accuse others of it and yet remain in denial yourself. You and a great many others are in denial of any wrong doing perpetrated by the West, and simply look for excuses to justify Islam as the problem. Why do you ignore cause and effect? I don't, for the last time I'm not an idiot of course western aggression is to blame as well as religion. If you are going to continue to address me then please stop arguing against positions that I do not hold. Yes some very bad things have been done in that region by western countries, I AM NOT DENYING THAT. Stop it! Please don’t preach Islam to me when you have shown such blatant ignorance of Islam. What proof are you bringing to the debate that Islam teaches them to be suicide bombers, where is the verse of the Qur’an? It's not my job to say how these people have interpreted the Quran in a way that they think it justifies suicide bombing, why don't you write a letter to Sheik Al-Qaradawi and ask him. The quoted text from articles by Islamophobes like David Bukay is a surprise for me, as I had you down for a more balanced debater, but apparently not. Oh I'm sorry I didn't realise, can you at least tell me what's wrong with the article instead of just dismissing it because of the author? Wouldn't it make you a bit more of a 'balanced debater' that way? And your response to it was that It's not me who has his head in the sand Jimmy, you need an urgent reality check. I am done wasting my time on this:thumbsup:But there isn't any evidence that it's purely because of western aggression, I was absolutely right. Just as there isn't any evidence that it's all because of religion, however, there is a lot of evidence that it's both. I am denying neither, you are the only one in denial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tab1 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 I am not making it up: there are Muslim theologians and clerics who think Islam justifies suicide bombing For one quick example, here you go, the product of 2 minutes on google: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/newsnight/3875119.stm SHEIKH YUSEF AL-QARADAWI (Qatar University) "It's not suicide, it is martyrdom in the name of God, Islamic theologians and jurisprudents have debated this issue. Referring to it as a form of jihad, under the title of jeopardising the life of the mujahideen. It is allowed to jeopardise your soul and cross the path of the enemy and be killed... Israeli women are not like women in our society because Israeli women are militarised. Secondly, I consider this type of martyrdom operation as indication of justice of Allah almighty. Allah is just. Through his infinite wisdom he has given the weak what the strong do not possess and that is the ability to turn their bodies into bombs like the Palestinians do... f the Iraqis can confront the enemy, there is no need for these acts of martyrdom. If they don't have the means, acts of martyrdom are allowed. I didn't say that the Iraqis cannot, it depends on their need." I really don’t see anything there that I have argued against, you are quoting this guy talking about Martyrdom. Islam has a category for martyrdom and I have already answered that point before, where one is praised for sacrifice for the benefit of the Muslim community. Originally Posted by tab1 In Islam however a Martyr is someone who dies in a legitimate battle for wellbeing of his Islamic community, or interpreted as giving his life for Islam, but not whilst breaking the basic law of Islam by killing innocent people. Taking of innocent life is clearly forbidden This does not allow for attacking INNOCENT people. The guy you quoted qualifies that women(but doesn't say children) in Israeli society are trained soldiers and therefore are part of the fighting machine and a legitimate target. We have come across words like collateral damage to justify slaughter so why moan at this wartime situation? You are mixing up the issue and attributing to me something I haven’t argued against. In context of a war a suicide bomber is no different to any soldier making the ultimate sacrifice, but the difference is when targeting innocent people. I contend that is forbidden, and to reiterate, killing in defence isn't forbidden but killing innocents is forbidden. They are freedom fighters when fighting the enemy but killing civilians is terrorism, and both sides are guilty of that no matter what excuse they come up with. It isn't our govenment policy even in war to kill innocent people but it happens, and it isn't Islam instruction to kill innocents either but sadly it happens. But there isn't any evidence that it's purely because of western aggression, I was absolutely right. Just as there isn't any evidence that it's all because of religion, however, there is a lot of evidence that it's both. I am denying neither, you are the only one in denial.I think you will find there were no suicide bombings against any western interests before the meddling in the Middle East. That is evidence enough, they didn’t have a cause to hate the West and now they have been given one, and for you to deny that is …..errr denial? And finally as for David Bukay, an Israeli who makes his living by spreading Islamophobia and not one I would regard as an unbiased authority on Islam. It would be like using Mein Kampf to make a study on Judaism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flamingjimmy Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 I really don’t see anything there that I have argued against, you are quoting this guy talking about Martyrdom. Islam has a category for martyrdom and I have already answered that point before, where one is praised for sacrifice for the benefit of the Muslim community. This does not allow for attacking INNOCENT people. The guy you quoted qualifies that women(but doesn't say children) in Israeli society are trained soldiers and therefore are part of the fighting machine and a legitimate target. We have come across words like collateral damage to justify slaughter so why moan at this wartime situation? You are mixing up the issue and attributing to me something I haven’t argued against. You have continually implied and asserted I am "in denial of any wrong doing perpetrated by the West" and that I think the issue is "as simple minded as, 'their religion telling them so'". I made it quite clear several pages ago that I hold neither of these positions, so can you stop attacking them in posts addressed to me please? Also, as to the 'doesn't say children' bit that's only because he didn't have the balls. He was asked in the interview about Israeli "civilians" but chose to only answer about women. If you'll note he doesn't say "children are exempt" either:rolleyes: In context of a war a suicide bomber is no different to any soldier making the ultimate sacrifice, but the difference is when targeting innocent people. I contend that is forbidden, and to reiterate, killing in defence isn't forbidden but killing innocents is forbidden. They are freedom fighters when fighting the enemy but killing civilians is terrorism, and both sides are guilty of that no matter what excuse they come up with. It isn't our govenment policy even in war to kill innocent people but it happens, and it isn't Islam instruction to kill innocents either but sadly it happens. As I've said what the Quran does or doesn't say isn't really relevant. What we have here, is a man who is apparently a household name in the Arab world, who has a weekly religious phone in program broadcast, and also co-owns the second most visited Islamic website in the world, saying this: "Allah Almighty is just; through his infinite wisdom he has given the weak a weapon the strong do not have and and that is their ability to turn their bodies into bombs as Palestinians do" He is using religion to justify suicide bombing, it's right there in black and white. And he claims that his view is held by 'hundreds of other Islamic Scholars'. EDIT:Whoops, here's the source! http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3874893.stm Also with regards to Israel I've got no problem with you calling them terrorists as well, they are. Once again you're arguing against something in your head, not what I've said. I think you will find there were no suicide bombings against any western interests before the meddling in the Middle East. That is evidence enough, they didn’t have a cause to hate the West and now they have been given one, and for you to deny that is …..errr denial?I'm not denying that they have a reason to hate the west though, you made that up! What exactly is it that I'm denying? Be specific! My bold, since when was that part of my assertion? you appear to be attempting to move the goalposts, it's not just suicide bombing against western interests that I have a problem with, it's all of them. Muslims also bomb other Muslims, not just western interests. And finally as for David Bukay, an Israeli who makes his living by spreading Islamophobia and not one I would regard as an unbiased authority on Islam. It would be like using Mein Kampf to make a study on Judaism.I don't think I need to use that article for my argument any more in any case, this crazy Al-Qarawadi dude will do just fine. Interestingly though you still haven't said what's wrong with the article, just attacked the author again:huh: Like I said don't bother if you don't want to, the jury can disregard that evidence if it really wants to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retep Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 And finally as for David Bukay, an Israeli who makes his living by spreading Islamophobia and not one I would regard as an unbiased authority on Islam. It would be like using Mein Kampf to make a study on Judaism. Strange that you should mention Mein Kampf, Can the Koran be compared to 'Mein Kampf'? http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1232643755752 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shane39 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 Go islam better than any other But you are advertising a Nike web-site on another topic.Are you promoting western companies?not very Islamic is it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gamezone07 Posted June 14, 2009 Share Posted June 14, 2009 PT said I have always contended that "If this bombing is so attractive, why aren't the scholars leading from the front, and the first to seize this 'paradise', rather than leading from the back, pushing the gullible into comitting these atrocities?" Sadly, always been the way, old men sending young men (and now women) into war and death Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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