The new Islam megathread part 3

[tab1]

You have continually implied and asserted I am "in denial of any wrong doing perpetrated by the West" and that I think the issue is "as simple minded as, 'their religion telling them so'". I made it quite clear several pages ago that I hold neither of these positions, so can you stop attacking them in posts addressed to me please?

Likewise I stated several pages ago that Muslims for many different reasons do bad things and those reasons are not simply because they are Muslims but because of other factors. Your continual assertion that it is because of Islam is what I object to, and not to deny there are extremists who consider themselves at war and feel their people are persecuted enough and should fight back with everything they have.........or the "only" thing they have.

 

Also, as to the 'doesn't say children' bit that's only because he didn't have the balls. He was asked in the interview about Israeli "civilians" but chose to only answer about women. If you'll note he doesn't say "children are exempt" either:rolleyes:

This Al-Qaradawi dude I had not even heard of other than from the BBC is an extremist and an intellectual. The wording of his justification is a legalistic one and I can’t see anything wrong with it. If you have read into it about children then it’s your decision and not what he said. Islam does prohibit taking of innocent lives and even this guy whom you quote as an extremist is in effect saying just that. He clarifies why he thinks Israeli women are a legitimate target. I am certain if he lives up to the billing of an Islamic scholar then he would condemn killing of any innocents, including children. It is his glorification of suicide bombings that irk most people, and yet the same people swell with pride at the ability of our soldiers to lay down their life for their country. Don’t you find that a bit hypocritical?

As I've said what the Quran does or doesn't say isn't really relevant. What we have here, is a man who is apparently a household name in the Arab world, who has a weekly religious phone in program broadcast, and also co-owns the second most visited Islamic website in the world, saying this:

 

"Allah Almighty is just; through his infinite wisdom he has given the weak a weapon the strong do not have and and that is their ability to turn their bodies into bombs as Palestinians do"

 

He is using religion to justify suicide bombing, it's right there in black and white. And he claims that his view is held by 'hundreds of other Islamic Scholars'.

 

EDIT:Whoops, here's the source! http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3874893.stm

 

You would have gained more respect for quoting the next bit of the article Jimmy or did that not fit in with your accusations somewhat? This bit from the same article

“Despite his popularity, Sheikh Al-Qaradawi is not without his critics in the Arab world.

 

Some see his regular preaching on Al-Jazeera as an uncritical regurgitation of Islamic dogma out of touch with the modern world.”

Should we have a *fallacy alert* Jimmy when you are using quotes selectively?

To suggest Islam justifies suicide bombings and then point to one scholar who justifies suicide bombings only in war situation and not as many idiots suggest (even on SF) is a Muslim pastime I still have to see the problem you are arguing against Jimmy, you agree many wrongs have been to Muslims who are retaliating. You say what the Qur’an says is irrelevant, but how can you suggest it's Islamic when the Qur'an doesnt back it up. Some extremist individuals don't represent almost two billion Muslims. Many also confuse Iran with mainstream Islam, but that is yet another topic.

 

I still have to see proof that Muslims commit suicide attacks because Islam tells them so. Your claims such as quoted below

Originally Posted by flamingjimmy

*fallacy alert* No true Scotsman eh tab? If only you were right. The fact is though that those who commit these acts consider themselves to be absolutely devout, and think that what they are doing is justified by the Quran. It happens, take your head out of the sand.

indicates the anti Islam mind set that reads into things that aren’t there, and yet you accuse me of having my head in the sand.

Also with regards to Israel I've got no problem with you calling them terrorists as well, they are. Once again you're arguing against something in your head, not what I've said.

I would not go as far as calling all Israelis terrorists but Zionism has sought an agenda that has used terrorism and media disinformation to gain acceptance.

 

I'm not denying that they have a reason to hate the west though, you made that up! What exactly is it that I'm denying? Be specific!

 

 

I wrote this

“Quote:Originally Posted by tab1

All normal people disagree with terrorism but things done to Muslims in Afghanistan with indiscriminate bombings villages, funerals and wedding parties, or Invasion and destruction of Iraqi civil society, or the humiliation of the Palestinians has guaranteed a steady supply of willing recruits. Take away the cause of grievance and we take away their recruiting sergeant. Justification is not in the Qur'an but in what those people perceive as an injustice brought upon them.”

 

And your reply was

 

No evidence for this, if this is true, then why do they keep blowing each other up as well as us and the Americans?

They are at war and in war a friend of the enemy is probably regarded traitors and much more of a danger than the enemy so providing legitimate target

[flamingjimmy]

Likewise I stated several pages ago that Muslims for many different reasons do bad things and those reasons are not simply because they are Muslims but because of other factors. Your continual assertion that it is because of Islam is what I object to, and not to deny there are extremists who consider themselves at war and feel their people are persecuted enough and should fight back with everything they have.........or the "only" thing they have.

Or the gift given to them by Allah? (not my words)

 

MY assertion is not that religion (Islam in this case) is the cause of suicide bombings, my assertion is that Islam is a significant factor that causes suicide bombings, it's a long way from the be-all and end-all, PLEASE STOP ARGUING AS IF I'M CLAIMING IT IS.

 

This Al-Qaradawi dude I had not even heard of other than from the BBC is an extremist and an intellectual.

Actually no his wikipedia page at least describes him as a moderate conservative, like I said this guy is not on the fringe, he is entirely mainstream, weekly television show, owns a website visited by millions of people, etc.

 

The wording of his justification is a legalistic one and I can’t see anything wrong with it.

Are you ****ing serious?

 

Here are the words again:"Allah Almighty is just; through his infinite wisdom he has given the weak a weapon the strong do not have and and that is their ability to turn their bodies into bombs as Palestinians do"

 

So you think there is nothing wrong with saying 'suicide bombing is a gift from Allah'?

 

If you have read into it about children then it’s your decision and not what he said. Islam does prohibit taking of innocent lives and even this guy whom you quote as an extremist is in effect saying just that.

Your're right, but he gets around this very easily by defining innocent however he wants.

 

He clarifies why he thinks Israeli women are a legitimate target. I am certain if he lives up to the billing of an Islamic scholar then he would condemn killing of any innocents, including children.

I am not. If this is such a black and white issue, then why didn't he mention it when he was asked about Israeli civilians?

 

It is his glorification of suicide bombings that irk most people, and yet the same people swell with pride at the ability of our soldiers to lay down their life for their country. Don’t you find that a bit hypocritical?

A little bit, but that's irrelevant because I am not one of those people.

You would have gained more respect for quoting the next bit of the article Jimmy or did that not fit in with your accusations somewhat? This bit from the same article

<Some Muslims don't agree with him>

hould we have a *fallacy alert* Jimmy when you are using quotes selectively?

No we shouldn't but we should have another strawman alert!

I never said, nor implied, that his viewpoint is the viewpoint of every muslim, of course there are Muslims that disagree with him, the reason I didn't include that quote is because it is not relevant. You are clutching at straws!

 

What I did say was that this man is a prominent influential Muslim cleric and Theologian and that he hold these views.

 

Can you please explain in what way the next line of the article contradicts that?

 

I thought not.

To suggest Islam justifies suicide bombings and then point to one scholar who justifies suicide bombings only in war situation and not as many idiots suggest (even on SF) is a Muslim pastime I still have to see the problem you are arguing against Jimmy, you agree many wrongs have been to Muslims who are retaliating. You say what the Qur’an says is irrelevant, but how can you suggest it's Islamic when the Qur'an doesnt back it up. Some extremist individuals don't represent almost two billion Muslims. Many also confuse Iran with mainstream Islam, but that is yet another topic.

It's not up to me to interpret the Quran, it's up to Muslims. Some Muslims interpret it as justifying suicide bombs (albeit they don't actually consider it suicide but martyrdom but a rose by any other name etc.)

I still have to see proof that Muslims commit suicide attacks because Islam tells them so. Your claims such as quoted below

 

Dr. Jamal Badawi (runs Islamonline, has made a 352 part television series, and is a member of several Muslim councils so again, not a fringe extremist):

 

"Defining a martyr is a matter of perspective. In all nations throughout history, a martyr is seen as a person who sacrifices his own life for a worthy cause. From an Islamic perspective, there are important qualifiers for a person to be a martyr.

First, the intent behind that sacrifice is exclusively for the sake of pleasing God and supporting His cause. Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) indicated that a person who fights for the sake of war spoils or fame or for Nero nationalism (may people right or wrong) does not fight for the sake of God."

 

He says right there that Islamic martyrs must do it 'for the sake of pleasing god', he says doing it for war spoils or fame doesn't count. It's quite explicit really.

<snip desperate attempt to catch me out>

I asked you to be specific, what truth am I denying?

[tab1]

Or the gift given to them by Allah? (not my words)

 

MY assertion is not that religion (Islam in this case) is the cause of suicide bombings, my assertion is that Islam is a significant factor that causes suicide bombings, it's a long way from the be-all and end-all, PLEASE STOP ARGUING AS IF I'M CLAIMING IT IS.

Let’s keep to the point and shorter posts please, this is getting way too long.

Islam does justify defence of its community in whatever means necessary. You may feign shock Jimmy but technically I see nothing wrong with this scholar or any other proclaiming that a disparate people will and indeed should fight with everything at their disposal, even making the ultimate sacrifice. That however is not a blanket permission to kill innocents indiscriminately. Only applies in a just war situation where there is no other means left to them. I expect the same from our soldiers and see nothing wrong the notion of a soldier laying down his life for what he believes to be a worthy cause, such as fighting for his country.

 

The justification of the war is provided by what is done to those people rather than what the Qur'an tells them. Even the scholar you quote doesn't actually justify killing innocent civilians but legitimate military targets, so how do you justify blaming Islam when Islam doesn't give justification except that alleged by Zionist propaganda machine.

 

He says right there that Islamic martyrs must do it 'for the sake of pleasing god', he says doing it for war spoils or fame doesn't count. It's quite explicit really.

Indeed it is explicit and it clearly states that doing it for war spoils or fame doesn't count but only for a cause that their God agrees with in a just cause, so Jimmy where is the problem? Are you suggesting that God they believe in orders them to kill innocent people without reason simply because that taking of life pleases God?

[flamingjimmy]

Let’s keep to the point and shorter posts please, this is getting way too long.

Islam does justify defence of its community in whatever means necessary. You may feign shock Jimmy but technically I see nothing wrong with this scholar or any other proclaiming that a disparate people will and indeed should fight with everything at their disposal, even making the ultimate sacrifice.

 

Neither do I, how about addressing this part of my post:

 

"Here are the words again:"Allah Almighty is just; through his infinite wisdom he has given the weak a weapon the strong do not have and and that is their ability to turn their bodies into bombs as Palestinians do"

 

So you think there is nothing wrong with saying 'suicide bombing is a gift from Allah'?"

[tab1]

Neither do I, how about addressing this part of my post:

 

"Here are the words again:"Allah Almighty is just; through his infinite wisdom he has given the weak a weapon the strong do not have and and that is their ability to turn their bodies into bombs as Palestinians do"

 

So you think there is nothing wrong with saying 'suicide bombing is a gift from Allah'?"

The plight of the Palestinians is not unfamiliar to you and indeed in context of a war they technically are a disparate people with nothing else to fight with. How does that then translate to mean Muslims in general Jimmy. The guy is using emotive language but those opinions are just his opinions and resonate with a great many people Muslims and non Muslims alike who sympathise with the Palestinian peoples' situation. If you read that as meaning killing innocents then I may disagree with you, suicide bombings against a legitimate target is no different to a soldier carrying a rifle willing to lay down his life. Can you tell me how it is so much more shocking because of a Palestinian and would not be if it was our own soldier, if the end result is his own death?

 

I maintain it is not a Muslim thing but a problem in a particular situation, and it is Islamophobic to try and turn it to blaming Islam.

 

On a lighter note though Jimmy I found this clip fairly descriptive of what some Islamic scholars are doing today.

[BorroughBlue]

suicide bombings against a legitimate target is no different to a soldier carrying a rifle willing to lay down his life.

.

 

An extreamist view if every I saw one:loopy:

[flamingjimmy]

An extreamist view if every I saw one:loopy:

 

depends entirely upon who he thinks are 'legitimate targets'. Care to indulge us tab1?

[Thebanginman]

depends entirely upon who he thinks are 'legitimate targets'. Care to indulge us tab1?

Anybody who has not been brainwashed and indoctrinated into the the will of Allah

[tab1]

depends entirely upon who he thinks are 'legitimate targets'. Care to indulge us tab1?

Of course it depends entirely upon who or what he thinks are the legitimate targets, and would it be a surprise for you to learn that in a war situation it would be the enemy?

Every soldier willing to lay down his life fighting on behalf of his country, and whichever country it may be, and any suicide bomber is an extremist. I thought I had explained it in an earlier post Jimmy

I stated several pages ago that Muslims for many different reasons do bad things and those reasons are not simply because they are Muslims but because of other factors. Your continual assertion that it is because of Islam is what I object to, and not to deny there are extremists who consider themselves at war and feel their people are persecuted enough and should fight back with everything they have.........or the "only" thing they have.

A country being invaded and more than a million of it's citizens killed is justification for some to call it a war. They are then the terrorists and extremists for fighting back, and their religion is blamed as the root cause........indeed:loopy:.

[upinwath]

suicide bombings against a legitimate target is no different to a soldier carrying a rifle willing to lay down his life.

 

Can't agree with you on that one.

The soldier who fights in a situation knowing he may die isn't the same as someone deliberately killing himself.

 

The latter is against the rules laid down in Al Qur'an if I'm correct.

Suicide is a sin as is murder of an innocent.

 

Most suicide bombers murder innocent civilians who happen to get in the way.

Often deliberately. See the latest Mosque murders in Pakistan.