9/11 conspiracy theories

[Phanerothyme]

Err, just what would that achieve Phan... even it were possible to calculate the rate of free fall which I don't believe it is. You know as well as I do that WTC free fall is the ultimate trick question.

 

I want somebody to provide calculations to demonstrate that what happened on the day wasn't possible. There is a lot of hot air about 'free fall' of half a million tons of material, but not a lot of science behind it... because the people repeating it don't understand what it is they are repeating!

 

Of all the out and out bunk I've heard about this subject, and boy there is a lot, this matter is about the only thing that fails a straightforward commonsense test.

 

Anything else is a matter of actually having witnessed the attack with an expert knowledge of steel under stress, the burning temperature of an aluminium and kerosene explosion, and the kinetics of the impact (amongst other things.) - a dubious privilege. But lacking that privilege, what can we understand about the circumstances of the collapse?

 

One thing we can all understand is that a building cannot fall faster than gravity will pull it, unless it is accelerated downwards by an additional force.

 

You can easily calculate the absolute theotetical minimum time it would take for a tower of that size to collapse without additional downward force.

 

Let's define, for the sake of argument, the completion of collapse is when 95% of the uppermost floor stops moving.

 

It cannot happen in less than 9.2029276 seconds.

 

That much is true. Isn't it?

[*_ash_*]

I know perfectly well what happens when a fully laden aircraft smashes into a steel structure as I have seen it happen twice.

 

You may not have seen it, but on July 28th 1945, a B-52 Bomber hit the 78th floor of the Empire State Building, (lost in fog)

 

A B-52 weighs min 83 tonnes, max 220 tonnes

A 767 weighs min 58 tonnes, max 115 tonnes,

 

Max speeds, 650mph for the B-52, and 540mph for the 767.

 

The heavier and faster B-52 hit the Empire SB at 300mph, and the fire burnt for 10 times longer than the twins, and yet it survived. (ESB is also a steel construction)

 

Not that I'm convinced either way, to whether there is conspiracy, i thought i'd add this info, just in case it hasnt previously been pointed out.

 

ash

[frankieboy]

bearing in mind that 'someone' masterminded the hijacking of the american presidency (without anyone being able to do anything either during or after - or even still), and then went on to invade a forign country to steal its oil (against UN orders, then using the U.N. to hold and 'try' the deposed leader! - whilst bombing and killing those very same people)' what difference does it make if we can or cant prove who actually brought down the buildings or how, when those responsible will just ignore what you say (they already know). (a smokescreen is just that) the fact is that you have already lost because they are the ones prepared to stand and kill for what they want/believe in, whilst you/we have nothing to fight back with if we hold onto the 'peaceful solution' theory.(how do you stop someone taking what they want without actually confronting them?) what will you do with the evidence? show it to the senate? the same of which not a single one stood against bush's succession?

'fact' - america has a non elected president. he sent 'his' army into iraq to steal their oil - (so what are the odds he's involved here?) there is no peaceful solution to this except complience -what we should be thinking about perhaps, is where 'our' representatives stand in all this (tony + the UN) - if they stand with him they are his acomplices and we are in the same boat, being dictated to from above. The only consolation prize though, is that they 'had to do it', because you cant be a superpower whilst someone has more power than you and can dictate to you. oil is power, not an atom bomb, without it we cease to function - our system is based on the aquasition of wealth and power via the consumption of oil. and those on top have to have the oil to keep US down. a world without oil is a new world. All I am wondering is - where was bruce willis when we needed him

[KenH]

You may not have seen it, but on July 28th 1945, a B-52 Bomber hit the 78th floor of the Empire State Building, (lost in fog)

 

A B-52 weighs min 83 tonnes, max 220 tonnes

A 767 weighs min 58 tonnes, max 115 tonnes,

 

Max speeds, 650mph for the B-52, and 540mph for the 767.

 

The heavier and faster B-52 hit the Empire SB at 300mph, and the fire burnt for 10 times longer than the twins, and yet it survived. (ESB is also a steel construction)

 

Not that I'm convinced either way, to whether there is conspiracy, i thought i'd add this info, just in case it hasnt previously been pointed out.

 

ash

 

One of the things I love about conspiracy theories is how they can change the tiniest detail and use it has proof that the martians kiled Diana. This is one of the best examples I have heard as it relies on transposing two numbers!

 

The B52 bomber was first flown in 1954 whereas the aircraft hit the empire state building in 1945. In fact it was a B25 and not a B52 that hit the building.

 

Whilst the B52 is very big and heavy, the B25 is much smaller. The B25 is a twin engined bomber which weighed about 10 tons empty and 15 tons MAUW (but could be up to 19 tons). The maximum speed was 275mph but it cruised at 230 mph. At the point where he crashed the pilot already knew he was in amongst sky scrapers and so would have drastically reduced speed. He then saw the empire state building ahead and tried to climb and twist away. Unlike the conspiracy theorists on the internet, I am an expert on some aviation matters, so I can tell you that seeing an obstactle ahead and going into a dramatic climb and turn would have reduced his speed to about 20-50% over the stall speed depending on how dramtic a turn he intended. There are also reports that the landing gear was already down which would have meant he was further limited in the speed because it creates drag and because there are strict limits on how fast an aircraft can fly with gear down. It is also worth noting that the aircraft was not loaded with bombs and had already flown a considerable distance.

 

So, to sum it up, the aircraft that flew into the Empire State Building was a B25 not a B52. It probably weighed between 10-15 tonnes and was travelling about 150-200 mph maximum. The B25 is a petrol driven aircraft not AVTUR so the effects of the fire would be different and there would clearly be far less fuel. So, we have an aircraft travelling at 25% of the speed of a 757 with a mass 10% of a 757. The two buildings are also contructed differently at different times.

[KenH]

'fact' - america has a non elected president.

 

How exactly is that a "fact"? Bush has held two elections. The first election was very close and many people formed the opinion that Bush actually lost. However, he was elected the second time 4 years later without any doubt whatsoever.

[evildrneil]

Most of it burned off on impact.

 

Really? How do you know that?

 

A Boing 767 carries 90,770l of jet fuel surely if it burnt off on impact (even accounting for the fuel that had been used) considerably larger external fires would have been seen on impact?

[evildrneil]

Stick it on, more the merrier. still wont melt them.

 

But will they be usable as sofa springs or will the hear have damaged their structural integrity enough to render them useless? To quote Vincent Dunn (writer of The Collapse Of Burning Buildings: A Guide To Fireground Safety. so a pretty reliable source here!) "I have never seen melted steel in a building fire, but I've seen a lot of twisted, warped, bent and sagging steel."

[Twiglet]

Most of it burned off on impact.

 

Another incorrect assumption. Actually, a large volume of jet fuel was expelled down the lift shafts, resulting in people being covered in it and burned within the lower floors of the building. As confirmed both on film and by many eyewitnesses. If most of the fuel had burned on impact, there wouldn't be enough to be going all over the place like this.

[poppins]

 

Bruce Willis is busy working for President Bush.

[venger]

But will they be usable as sofa springs or will the hear have damaged their structural integrity enough to render them useless? To quote Vincent Dunn (writer of The Collapse Of Burning Buildings: A Guide To Fireground Safety. so a pretty reliable source here!) "I have never seen melted steel in a building fire, but I've seen a lot of twisted, warped, bent and sagging steel."

 

Well none of the steel was replaced in the 1965 fire at the WTC and that burned for much longer, nice of Dunn to mention melted steel.