Grahame Posted September 9, 2007 Share Posted September 9, 2007 The Levitical laws (given in leviticus and deuteronomy) prescribe death for adulterers in fact, lots of crimes carry the DP in leviticus and Deut'. just look at this one chapter... leviticus 20 Again, thou shalt say to the children of Israel, Whosoever [he be] of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn in Israel, that giveth [any] of his seed unto Molech; he shall surely be put to death: the people of the land shall stone him with stones. <snip> What you are doing there PT is quoting Old Testament law which is similar to Islamic law as practised today. I thank God for Jesus who said in the New Covenant (Testament): - First, "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you... whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also." Mat. 5:38-39 Second, Jesus forgave the woman "caught in adultery, in the very act." To those arguing that she should be put to death, Jesus said: "He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first." John 8:7 Third, Jesus taught believers to forgive: "But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." Mat. 6:15 Fourth, Paul taught believers to: Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse... Repay no one evil for evil... do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I Will repay," says the Lord." Rom. 12:14, 17, 19 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plekhanov Posted September 9, 2007 Share Posted September 9, 2007 So you concede that the bible contains passages every bit as unpleasant and murderously intolerant as anything in the koran and that being a tolerant Christian means you have to deliberately ignore huge chunks of the bible? Given a political & idealogical kicking equivalent to that received by british Xians over the last few centuries have you any reason to believe that many Muslims wouldn't become as adept at ignoring the nasty bits of the Koran as Rowan William & his like are at ignoring most of the bible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grahame Posted September 9, 2007 Share Posted September 9, 2007 Oh dear plekhanov, we were having a nice constructive debate. You know I'm a Christian which offers a message of love and if the followers of Islam would like to come up to speed and change their laws to reflect the teaching of Jesus then I would be well pleased. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plekhanov Posted September 9, 2007 Share Posted September 9, 2007 Oh dear plekhanov, we were having a nice constructive debate. So that's why JoeP was threatening to ban people just a few posts ago is it? Do you have to start your response with personal abuse? You know I'm a Christian which offers a message of love and if the followers of Islam would like to come up to speed and change their laws to reflect the teaching of Jesus then I would be well pleased. But as you concede in your previous post the bible contains all manner of unpleasantness. When Christian's could they followed those commands they did, it's thanks to the growing strength of secular liberalism & the weakness of Christianity in the UK over the last few centuries that has forced most British Xian's to pretend Leviticus doesn't exist and play nice not any inherent niceness in the bible. The well documented history of violent Christian intolerance to heretics & pagans of powerful evidence of that. The solution to the problem of Islamism isn't Christianity as you bizarrely seem to be claiming but the thing which tamed Christianity - secular liberalism. One day it would be nice to cure people of religion entirely but till then the best we can hope for is to neuter it, as Europe has largely succeeded in doing to Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grahame Posted September 9, 2007 Share Posted September 9, 2007 So that's why JoeP was threatening to ban people just a few posts ago is it? Do you have to start your response with personal abuse? But as you concede in your previous post the bible contains all manner of unpleasantness. When Christian's could they followed those commands they did, it's thanks to the growing strength of secular liberalism & the weakness of Christianity in the UK over the last few centuries that has forced most British Xian's to pretend Leviticus doesn't exist and play nice not any inherent niceness in the bible. The well documented history of violent Christian intolerance to heretics & pagans of powerful evidence of that. The solution to the problem of Islamism isn't Christianity as you bizarrely seem to be claiming but the thing which tamed Christianity - secular liberalism. One day it would be nice to cure people of religion entirely but till then the best we can hope for is to neuter it, as Europe has largely succeeded in doing to Christianity. Old Testament law is not for today and Islamic law is based on the Old Testament which Islam adopted approximately 500 years after Christ’s death. They ‘say’ Jesus was a prophet but they ignore his teaching preferring to focus instead on Old Testament law which was outdated by the time of Mohammad. The apostle Paul writing to the Hebrews confirmed the new law or covenant as taught by Jesus Christ is for everyone including Muslims. Hebrews chapter 8 starting at verse 6. "But as it is, Jesus Christ has obtained a ministry that is much more excellent than the old as the covenant he mediates is better, since it is enacted on better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second…..Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant that I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt. For they did not continue in my covenant, and so I showed no concern for them, declares the Lord. For this is the new covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall not teach, each one his neighbour and each one his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more." In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away." . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plekhanov Posted September 9, 2007 Share Posted September 9, 2007 That's just your personal interpretation of the bible, many other Christians in fact the clear majority both throughout history and alive today view things very differently. Medieval Christians following Deuteronomy butchered heretics, American Christians following Exodus bomb clinics that amongst other things perform abortions, African Christians following their understanding of Leviticus are today in the process of schisming from the Anglican church because it isn't homophobic enough for them and following their interpretation of Genesis preach against using condoms to help prevent the AIDS epidemic (though I realise that in these last two cases you probably agree with them). There's more than enough nasty stuff in both the bible & the Koran and sadly most believers in each faith believe a distressingly large portion of it. Just because thanks to the influence of secular liberalism in forcibly toning down British Christianity you happen to believe in relatively less of the particularly evil bits of the bible that doesn't magically stop most other Christians from doing so. You are clearly trying to argue in this thread that Christianity is in some way nice & Islam horrid but the facts do not support your position. When it held sway in Europe Christianity was truly monstrous as it continues to be elsewhere, it's just bizarre how you seem to be arguing that Christianity should get the credit for being forced to become something European churches bitterly fought against every step of the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grahame Posted September 9, 2007 Share Posted September 9, 2007 As you know I have been a Christian for most of my life and I have only known goodness, kindness and love throughout although I admit not everyone is perfect and often I have been less helpful than I should have been. People have their own views on things and not everyone sees Christianity in the same way so all I can say to you is to "Taste and see that the Lord, he is good." Yours in Christ, Graham. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plekhanov Posted September 9, 2007 Share Posted September 9, 2007 Yes and? I never said that Christian’s can’t be nice but that like the Koran the Bible is chock full of unpleasant, nasty and downright evil instructions and examples to believers that have and do inspire people to commit both petty and monstrous acts of cruelty. Furthermore that British Christians tend not to commit monstrous acts of cruelty is because religion is so weak in the UK, not because Christianity itself is nice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFKvsNixon Posted September 9, 2007 Share Posted September 9, 2007 As you know I have been a Christian for most of my life and I have only known goodness, kindness and love throughout although I admit not everyone is perfect and often I have been less helpful than I should have been. People have their own views on things and not everyone sees Christianity in the same way so all I can say to you is to "Taste and see that the Lord, he is good." Yours in Christ, Graham. Fine words, easy to say but far harder to follow. For example you are quick to condemn around 1 billion people on the actions of a few by saying that Muslims will: kill you if you disagree with them. You also say that: Shouldn't tolerance be a two way street? This is not the message of Jesus, he was big on tolerence towards every one. Infact perhaps you could follow his teachings by offering goodness, kindness and love towards everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grahame Posted September 9, 2007 Share Posted September 9, 2007 We don't follow the teaching of the Old Testament and neither do we follow the teaching of the Koran. I'm not a Buddhist but I find myself leaning towards them in some respects although not in others. And yes JFK I agree with your last sentence, but like plekhanov I find it hard when I hear of the things that are done in the name of religion, and I expect if you were present at a stoning I hope you would be as disturbed as I think I would be and I hope you are not asking me to be in agreement with things like that. . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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