Has anyone on here read The Koran?

[Zafar]

And the controversy is where exactly, Zafar??

 

His former Muslim name can't be found as Mark will keep it well hidden in order to try and protect his remaining Muslim family back in Egypt.

Mark himself cannot return there due to various death threats in accordance with Bukharis Hadith, volume 9, book 84, number 58 - The ruling on killing apostates.

 

Wikipedia confirms his Al-Azhar qualifications, so I really don't see the point to your challenge.

 

Apart from of course, you can't bare to see a Muslim leaving Islam, and so you just resort to trying to discredit the person, instead of just accepting the fact.

 

Pah.

 

Kay_Cee,

 

Before you go off on a tangent, my point is that unless there is confirmation of a person or a group (referring to the link LordC pasted) its difficult to confirm 'facts'.

 

Alot of authors (some using pseudonyms) can make claims about their CV which can not be corroborated. Its probably a 'shock' to you that alot of top company exec's make fibs on their CV's so why cant authors? especially ones where their names/details are shrouded in secrecy!

 

LordC pasted a link to a group claiming to be 'Ex-Muslims', but its just a website, there is no way to confirm who these people claim to be.

 

I have no problems with people choosing to drop their religion, its THEIR choice. Why should I loose sleep ?

 

Questioning does not equal discrediting and to the contrary it appears that anyone who espouses anything anti-islamic seems to be 'hero' for you.

 

Z

[kay_cee]

Zafar & 4U2NV;

As I'm sure you are aware, it is extremely dangerous for a Muslim to leave Islam. Muhammed decreed the death penalty for those who did so.

 

Whilst ever this decree stands (probably forever) Muslims who leave Islam must, at the very least, be careful about the personal information they give out.

So yes, Zafar, it may be difficult to establish facts and confirm information relating to their background which present Muslims jump on and use as a way to dicredit their testimony.

 

I could take you tommorow night to a group in Sheffield of (mainly) Iranian converts to Christianity who meet in homes across the city.

But I won't.

Why? It could be dangerous for them, some of them have suffered physical persecution even in our country because of their conversions.

 

Because I won't take you, does that mean they don't exist? No. But disbelieve it if you want Zafar, I care little.

[scribe]

Is this book fiction or non-fiction .

[LordChaverly]

Kay_Cee,

 

Before you go off on a tangent, my point is that unless there is confirmation of a person or a group (referring to the link LordC pasted) its difficult to confirm 'facts'.

 

Alot of authors (some using pseudonyms) can make claims about their CV which can not be corroborated. Its probably a 'shock' to you that alot of top company exec's make fibs on their CV's so why cant authors? especially ones where their names/details are shrouded in secrecy!

 

LordC pasted a link to a group claiming to be 'Ex-Muslims', but its just a website, there is no way to confirm who these people claim to be.

 

I have no problems with people choosing to drop their religion, its THEIR choice. Why should I loose sleep ?

 

Questioning does not equal discrediting and to the contrary it appears that anyone who espouses anything anti-islamic seems to be 'hero' for you.

 

Z

 

zafar,

 

The tone of your post seems to one of scepticism concerning the credentials and veracity of the 'ex-muslims' on the site I cited above. The site is run by Ali Sina, about whom there is little doubt - he is definitely an ex-muslim and has given many interviews to the press concerning his apostacy and views on Islam. If you read some of the posts on the site's forum, I think there can be little doubt that they are ex-muslims too (why would they go to such lengths to invent an apostate history? - and why do you find it so hard to believe that some muslims indeed do abandon Islam?).

 

Of course, Ali Sina is by no means the only muslim apostate to achieve prominence in this way. Probably an even more famous case is that of Ibn Warraq (another ex-muslim from the Indian subcontinent, like Sina himself). Warraq has written a quite well known book entitled 'Why I Am Not A Muslim', which is a very interesting and informative read.

 

In any case, I suggest you take the analyses of the Koran on these sites at their face value. The depth and breadth of knowledge they display at the very least demonstrate that the writers have a great deal of knowledge about Islam and the Koran, whether you believe them or not.

 

I do wish the majority of other muslims shared your tolerance of muslim apostates. A more common reaction is to send the believers into paroxysms of rage or into a state of denial (involving the strong possibility of ostacism where a family member is involved and condign punishment where a muslim government is involved). No compulsion in religion? I only wish it was generally true in muslim societies. Unfortunately, the opposite seems generally to be the case.

 

Here is Warraq's site.

 

http://www.secularislam.org/

[spud]

whats it about?

 

 

It's a fantasy novel init

[Ninjamagic]

People

 

This is the "Have you read the Quran" thread. Not the have people left Islam thread?

 

If you wish to comment on that character or any iranian people do it on a seperate thread and please dont smudge/grey this thread. Cant we keep it concise?

 

Finally none of you are experts in Apostasty in Islamic Law.

 

So dont try and do a PHD thesis online when you know nothing except one or two links. Well you can of course if you want, but it wouldnt be an authority.

[Zafar]

Zafar & 4U2NV;

As I'm sure you are aware, it is extremely dangerous for a Muslim to leave Islam. Muhammed decreed the death penalty for those who did so.

 

Whilst ever this decree stands (probably forever) Muslims who leave Islam must, at the very least, be careful about the personal information they give out.

So yes, Zafar, it may be difficult to establish facts and confirm information relating to their background which present Muslims jump on and use as a way to dicredit their testimony.

 

I could take you tommorow night to a group in Sheffield of (mainly) Iranian converts to Christianity who meet in homes across the city.

But I won't.

Why? It could be dangerous for them, some of them have suffered physical persecution even in our country because of their conversions.

 

Because I won't take you, does that mean they don't exist? No. But disbelieve it if you want Zafar, I care little.

 

The act of apostacy is a serious offence in all of the monothesic religions.

 

Indeed what does it say in the Torah ?

 

Deuteronomy 13:6-10:

 

If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which [is] as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; [Namely], of the gods of the people which [are] round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth; Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

 

HOWEVER, this has to be taken in the context of the Law of the land.

 

If the law of the land dictates that becoming an appostate is a criminal offence then it would be silly to openly tell everyone that you've commited a crime! Its a no brainer!

 

Under the UK law its not an offence, so people are free to choose and follow their beliefs.

 

My point re the web is that anyone can claim anything, therefore there should be some caution before taking everything as being the Gospel truth.

 

For instance a person could easily setup a website claiming to be a convert from Judaism and then going on to make a whole series of derogatory and inflammatory remarks about Judaism. There isn't a central register of 'converts'.

 

In the current climate, its kind of en-vogue to be an ex Muslim who slates Islam or other muslims.

 

Its true that muslims see apostates as 'criminals', just as orthodox Jews will see apostates in a similar light. Its only a problem when they take it upon themselves to break the laws of the Land in 'punishing' them.

 

I've met many Iranians during my time working in the South, and contrary to the 'fundamentalist' picture painted in the press, the vast majority of them were western leaning secularists (perhaps alot were exiles from the time of the Shah's removal?).

 

We tended to disagree in debates about religion and Arab/Persian history but there is nothing wrong with disagreeing. Alot of Iranian's dont hold Arabs in high regards, but similarly alot of Arabs dont hold the Iranians in high esteem.

Perhaps its not too dissimilar to the English/Irish phenomenon.

 

Finally the notion of apostacy is nothing new, so I dont have a problem 'believing' you.

 

Z

[Ninjamagic]

Asalaam Alaikum

 

Good point Zafar:)

[halevan]

I borrowed an English version of the Koran, but after a short time I put it down as it is all repetion and just as bad as the Bible. It gets so boring reading the same phrases page after page, so the reader is not learning anything, I returned it in perfect condition and have never been interested since.

[scribe]

Koran/Bible same load of ******** .