Has anyone on here read The Koran?

[Unbelievable]

Islamists seem to take enormous delight in repeating the phrase that 'Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world'. What they often fail to mention is that this, if indeed it is true, is due almost entirely to the higher birth rates in muslim communities, allied to the severe moral, social and (in many cases) legal penalties for apostacy. Historically, the spread of Islam has largely been through conquest and forced conversion rather than through voluntary conversion.

 

PROVE IT.

[Bartfarst]

PROVE IT.

 

 

No - disprove it.

[4U2NV]

No - disprove it.

 

Unbelievable asked first or is the fact that that LC just made all that up and in fact cant prove jack?

[canugetagrip]

no!!!!!!!!!! who's the author "stephen king"

[Annoni_mouse]

No - disprove it.

 

To be fair,Bartfarst,it was LordC who made the statement-the onus is on him to validate his claim with proof-as im sure he'll be along to do,any minute....

[Zafar]

I am pleased that you have no problem in believing me with regard to the existence of muslim apostates. You are of course right to argue that apostacy exists in all religions (and so it should). However, I tend to think that the reaction to apostacy within the muslim religion is fundamentally and qualitatively different to that of all other major religions, whether montheistic or not. In particular, the muslim religion seems to be the only one today which meets out condign punishments to apostates (in many muslim countries it is a criminal offence to forgo the Islamic faith, with severe penalties - in some cases death and in others long terms of imprisonment - attached). Within muslim communities in the West, apostates are likely to suffer ostracism from their families, which is why they are likely to keep a low profile).

 

I dont believe its a question of apostacy 'should' exist, its just a fact of life so to speak. Companies acquire new customers and also suffer from churn, i.e. customers who take their business elsewhere. Growth is simply a measure of the existing customer base + new customers - churn.

 

I suspect that you percieve the Islamic faith as being fundamentally and qualitatively different because of the coverage given to it in recent times, especially since the so called War on Terrorism was instigated, along with the celebrity status bestowed upon Islam bashers.

 

I imagine the older generation of Jewish people can probably relate to some of the experiences that muslims are currently undergoing in terms of how Judaism was villified by enlightened European Intellectuals.

 

There is a certain level of imbalance and selectivity regarding the criticism of Islamic beliefs and practices which doesn't extend to other faiths or indeed other cultures.

 

Many of the practices which are highlighted are ignored when it comes to other faiths and their beliefs. I've already listed what Judaism prescribes visa vi Apostacy, but what about Hinduism and the practice of wife burning or the practices of Christians in places such as Africa or South America ?

 

You mentioned that Islamic growth has historically been through conquest, but you fail to qualify that with say Christian growth in the past and the linkage with European imperial conquests. Indeed never mind Africa, Asia, South America and imperial conquests, the growth of Christianity within Europe itself is a long and often bloody story of forced conversions, beit in the Northern European states or the later inquisitions in modern day Spain.

 

However in the end, I believe that the general argument of this group did this in the past or that group did that in the past is a redundant argument as:

 

1) No one can say for definate what actually happened.

2) We all live in the present, and many of those who carried out the alleged acts have been dead and buried for years, decades or indeed tens of centuries.

3) It serves no real purpose other than to create divisions and hurt people's sensitivities.

 

You said that within muslim communities in the West, apostates are likely to suffer ostracism from their families, which is why they are likely to keep a low

profile.

 

This is probably true, but as I've never heard of anyone from my background/culture becoming an apostate I cant qualify it with any hard numbers, HOWEVER, what I can say from experience is that many ethnic communities have ostracised family members for other reasons, particularly related around marriage.

 

This form of ostrasicm within families crosses cultures and faiths, as many a Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Sikh member could testify to.

 

Z

[Zafar]

Islamists seem to take enormous delight in repeating the phrase that 'Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world'. What they often fail to mention is that this, if indeed it is true, is due almost entirely to the higher birth rates in muslim communities, allied to the severe moral, social and (in many cases) legal penalties for apostacy. Historically, the spread of Islam has largely been through conquest and forced conversion rather than through voluntary conversion.

 

LordC,

 

Whilst there is probably truth in the comment about higher birth rates, Its worth noting that there does seem to be an increased conversion or reversion taking place in the west towards Islam post 11th of Sep 2001.

 

Without hard facts and numbers, I think we can all recognise 'English' muslims on our streets and city centres. This is certainly not something I saw growing up.

 

Its also worth noting that 'growth' for other Faiths such as Christianity etc is mostly occurring in area's of the world with higher birth rates than Europe such as South America / Africa.

 

Lastly, the idea of these parts of the world having 'higher' birth rates is slightly misleading. The number of children being born in many poorer parts of the world isn't any higher than it use to be, its just that the birth rates in the 'developed' parts of the world have been plummeting and the chances of babies dying in the poorer parts has declined.

 

Having said that I suppose the current changes in climate will play in altering the mortality rates in the poorer parts of the world.

 

Z

[withnail]

2) We all live in the present,

Z

 

Unless, of course, you are unfortunate enough to live under Sharia law -whereby you live in the Dark Ages.

[withnail]

LordC,

 

Whilst there is probably truth in the comment about higher birth rates, Its worth noting that there does seem to be an increased conversion or reversion taking place in the west towards Islam post 11th of Sep 2001.

 

Pure speculation backed up with nothing and therefore not worth noting at all.

 

Without hard facts and numbers, I think we can all recognise 'English' muslims on our streets and city centres. This is certainly not something I saw growing up.

 

Yes, after successive Islamist terrorist outrages we are all a little more aware of Muslims on our streets.

 

Lastly, the idea of these parts of the world having 'higher' birth rates is slightly misleading. The number of children being born in many poorer parts of the world isn't any higher than it use to be, its just that the birth rates in the 'developed' parts of the world have been plummeting and the chances of babies dying in the poorer parts has declined.

Less developed countries have both relative (in comparison with developed countries) and absolute (the number of babies born) birth rates that are high. The number of children being born in many poorer parts of the world is thus higher than in the past.

[wendygs]

My point re the web is that anyone can claim anything, therefore there should be some caution before taking everything as being the Gospel truth.

 

For instance a person could easily setup a website claiming to be a convert from Judaism and then going on to make a whole series of derogatory and inflammatory remarks about Judaism. There isn't a central register of 'converts'.

 

Z

 

 

I am more than happy to verify zafar's observations about the merit of on-line reporting which is borne out by my recent experience of a link that was sent to me which displayed several scenes supposedly involving the arrest and murder of a Palestinian.

 

As this deeply concerned me, I made inquiries and ultimately discovered all parties, ie Arabs, Muslims and the West were highly sceptical of this on-line reportage which was considered to lack any substance and foundation.

 

I was glad to report back to my information source that although profoundly disturbed by the photographs, no evidence existed to support the allegations.

 

In addition, I am sure that if we cast our minds back, we will all remember the unacceptable way in which some photo-journalists chose to misrepresent the scenes from the Kuwaiti oil refineries some years ago.