Has anyone on here read The Koran?

[Tony]

Unless, of course, you are unfortunate enough to live under Sharia law -whereby you live in the Dark Ages.

 

Not the Dark Ages, but the time of the Spanish Inquisition and the general Terror would be appropriate.

 

I do rather think that Islam is merely 500 years behind Christianity. After all, Mohammad was about the same time behind Jesus.

 

For the majority, Islam will die out in another half millennia or so. Until then, patience

[firecracker]

PROVE IT.

Islamic conquests in the first 120 years after Mohammeds death

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_conquests

 

1,400 years of Christian/Islamic struggle:

http://www.cbn.com/CBNNews/Commentary/IslamHistory0212.asp

 

Jihad in the West:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1233577/posts

 

Chronology of conquests in the name of Allah:

http://www.crossroad.to/glossary/islam-chron.htm

 

Jihad and Dhimmitude:

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=4857

 

I would think there's plenty of proof there. And the eminent historian J B Kelly said "Had Charles Martel not triumphed at Tours, Arabic might well have been the language of Cambridge and Oxford". And history tells us that Islam was spread by the sword and stopped by the cannon and musket at Vienna in 1683.

[Bartfarst]

Not the Dark Ages, but the time of the Spanish Inquisition and the general Terror would be appropriate.

 

I do rather think that Islam is merely 500 years behind Christianity. After all, Mohammad was about the same time behind Jesus.

 

For the majority, Islam will die out in another half millennia or so. Until then, patience

 

I was just about to quote the same thing, or near enough.

 

The obsession with Christian expansion left the Catholic Church with a rather brutal and embarrassing past for quite a while, and it took the Church’s attitude hundreds of years to mature.

 

It would seem that large elements of the Islamic faith are willing to embrace the same sort of obsessive and uncompromising view of their faith’s importance and supremacy over faiths, and are blind to the infantile, naive and ignorant image that they present to others.

[LordChaverly]

I dont believe its a question of apostacy 'should' exist, its just a fact of life so to speak. Companies acquire new customers and also suffer from churn, i.e. customers who take their business elsewhere. Growth is simply a measure of the existing customer base + new customers - churn.

 

I suspect that you percieve the Islamic faith as being fundamentally and qualitatively different because of the coverage given to it in recent times, especially since the so called War on Terrorism was instigated, along with the celebrity status bestowed upon Islam bashers.

 

I imagine the older generation of Jewish people can probably relate to some of the experiences that muslims are currently undergoing in terms of how Judaism was villified by enlightened European Intellectuals.

 

There is a certain level of imbalance and selectivity regarding the criticism of Islamic beliefs and practices which doesn't extend to other faiths or indeed other cultures.

 

Many of the practices which are highlighted are ignored when it comes to other faiths and their beliefs. I've already listed what Judaism prescribes visa vi Apostacy, but what about Hinduism and the practice of wife burning or the practices of Christians in places such as Africa or South America ?

 

You mentioned that Islamic growth has historically been through conquest, but you fail to qualify that with say Christian growth in the past and the linkage with European imperial conquests. Indeed never mind Africa, Asia, South America and imperial conquests, the growth of Christianity within Europe itself is a long and often bloody story of forced conversions, beit in the Northern European states or the later inquisitions in modern day Spain.

 

However in the end, I believe that the general argument of this group did this in the past or that group did that in the past is a redundant argument as:

 

1) No one can say for definate what actually happened.

2) We all live in the present, and many of those who carried out the alleged acts have been dead and buried for years, decades or indeed tens of centuries.

3) It serves no real purpose other than to create divisions and hurt people's sensitivities.

 

You said that within muslim communities in the West, apostates are likely to suffer ostracism from their families, which is why they are likely to keep a low

profile.

 

This is probably true, but as I've never heard of anyone from my background/culture becoming an apostate I cant qualify it with any hard numbers, HOWEVER, what I can say from experience is that many ethnic communities have ostracised family members for other reasons, particularly related around marriage.

 

This form of ostrasicm within families crosses cultures and faiths, as many a Muslim, Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Sikh member could testify to.

 

Z

 

 

Zafar,

 

I agree with you that Christianity has been a prosylitising religion and has in the past been spread by the sword. In my comments about Islam being spread largely by conquest, I was responding to a previous poster who was repeating the triumphalist mantra about Islam being the 'fastest growing religion'. I was therefore commenting on the nature of Islamic expansionism in the past and implicitly was challenging another popular mantra of the PR-savvy Islamists so beloved of the Western media - i.e. that 'there is no compulsion in religion'.

 

The latter statement dates from the early part of Mohammad's career - i.e. when his forces were still weak. As these forces became stronger, this tolerant stance was dropped in favour of a much more aggressive, expansionist and intolerant posture. Far from being a 'gentle Jesus meek and mild figure', Mohammad was an aggressive warrior who took part in over 60 military actions (mostly raids of one kind or another) and personally ordered captives executed and their wives and children carried off as booty. He also personally decreed that the punishment for apostasy should be death and indeed had various 'apostates' executed. The reason why apostasy in Islam even today is generally regarded as a terrible crime is that it is viewed as a kind of treason against God.

 

There is no doubt that Islam was spread by the sword throughout the Arab peninsula and also to Iran, parts of India, Africa and even parts of Europe by military campaigns and forced conversions. I believe you are of Pakistani ethnic origin, so you may be interested to discuss and debate how Islam reached and conquered part of the Indian sub-continent. I am referring here to the brutal conquest and islamification of Sindh and other areas of what is roughly Pakistan by Arab invaders such as Mohammed bin Qasim in the early 8th century and beyond. Again, historians have very different views on what actually happened during this period, but there is a considerable body of evidence to suggest that this process of Islamification of Hindu populations resulted in large measure from forced conversions. There is also much evidence that this conquest was very bloody and resulted in mass slaughter and enslavement of those who resisted.

 

I am not sure if you are familiar with the writings of V.S.Naipaul, but he has a theory that Pakistani muslims are still a 'colonised' people, in that they are colonised by the Arab culture and religion imposed on their ancestors many centuries ago (he has said the same about Iranians). Given the incalculable degree of misery and suffering caused by wars between muslims and hindus on the Indian sub-continent over many centuries, arguably the arrival of the Syrian Qasim in the region in the 8th century is a much greater cause for lament than the arrival of the East India Company in 18th century. At least the British Raj had a policy of non-conversion by force (and indeed actively discouraged the activities of Christian missionaries).

[withnail]

Not the Dark Ages, but the time of the Spanish Inquisition and the general Terror would be appropriate.

 

I do rather think that Islam is merely 500 years behind Christianity. After all, Mohammad was about the same time behind Jesus.

 

For the majority, Islam will die out in another half millennia or so. Until then, patience

 

Yes, I've thought along these lines too. Is it the case that Islam is simply adolescent - young (by comparison), surly, in yer face and convinced of its own longevity and importance (there is no God, but Allah, either you're one of us or you're kafir)?

Houellebecq explores this theme in The Possibility of an Island and compares the current Islamist fervour with the rise of communism. Ultimately, he suggests, once all the angry young men grow up and the people tire of its dogma and authoritarianism, Islam, like the other so-called great faiths and -isms, will go into terminal decline. However, as Sam Harris asks in The End of Faith, in the age of WMD and hyper-terrorism (Bin Laden and crew make the IRA seem like a bunch of Boy Scouts) can we afford the luxury of assuming that this natural life cycle we come to pass? In other words, will Islamic terrorism and our cackhanded responses to it(stomping on our civil liberties in the name of the war on terror), do for our liberal, nominally secular democracies before Islam fades away?

[4U2NV]

I would think there's plenty of proof there. And the eminent historian J B Kelly said "Had Charles Martel not triumphed at Tours, Arabic might well have been the language of Cambridge and Oxford". And history tells us that Islam was spread by the sword and stopped by the cannon and musket at Vienna in 1683.

 

what about the spanish inquisition (Torquemada)?

forced conversion to christianity or death. hmmm

[Internetowl]

I can't believe this thread is still going

[artisan]

Islam means 'Submissive' We have never been known as a people to surrender so I think that, with a few exceptions they are barking up the wrong tree

[theHook]

Don't mean to revive an old thread, but Islam doesn't mean submissive at all.

 

People sometimes say, "Islam means Peace." Like to know where they got that intrepretation from because my mother tongue is arabic and no way the words means peace.

 

SALAAM means Peace not Islam.

 

So, is the definition of Islam?

 

Islam comes from the ROOT word in Arabic SA’LA’MA which contains the following 5 words:

 

Surrender, Submission, Obedience, Purity/Sincerity and Peace.

 

To who?

 

To the One God or as Muslims say, "Allah."

 

If you look at the Arabic Dictionary:

 

ISLAM is a VERB that means: SURRENDER your will to god “Allah”; OBEY his commandments; be in total SUBMISSION to what He wants you to do all the time; and do all the above PURELY / SINCERILY for his sake alone; in order to achieve PEACE between your soul and Him the one and only creator.

 

As for Islam being young - all the messengers, prophets, like Moses, Jesus, Abrahim and thousands more (peace be upon them) came from the same God. But many misunderstood, misintrepreted their message and corrupted it. So the final message is Islam, The Holy Qur'an and the example of Muhammad peace be upon him. Does that mean we as Muslims should disrespect Christainity and other religions? No. Because for many who missed the point, and I am talking about fellow Muslims too - Muhammad (peace be upon him) also came to correct character. So, we must respect other people's belief and talk with wisdom and do not curse their belief but discuss and learn from one another.

 

Again, apologies to revive the thread but saw something here I needed to answer, as it is the Intention and action with it that matters.

[Alastair]

The resurrection of this thread reminds me of how good Sheffield Forum once was. Where did all the intelligent posters go?