Foxxx Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 Originally posted by alert_bri Notice how many questions I have and no answers but blind faith in "doing what feels right"? Yes I have noticed that you have no answers, you still haven't answered any of my questions, or anyone elses! Here were a couple of them: Do you take drugs when not well? Would you prefer to be living in a world where we die young and haven't made any of the advancements that we have today? If you were diagnosed with a disease and there wasn't a cure for it, but a cure could be found by using animals what would you think to that out of interest? Would you sit and suffer or even die while scientists try to come up with an alternative method of research which could take years and years or never happen? Where will the scientists get the funding from to find alternative methods? No new drugs would come onto the market in the meantime as they wouldn't have been able to put it into a human without testing it on an animal first. No new drugs, no profit, no research into alternative methods. Would you be willing to try a drug if you didn't have a clue what would happen to you when you took it? You then state My proposal is for how we move forward - by perhaps taking the hard choice now to spend more money finding alternative ways to test drugs and indeed natural alternatives to drugs(!) Where will this money come from?? Personally, I'll live in the world we have with as much dignity as possible Only made possible by the medical knowledge we have available, which has come at the cost of animal experimentation. what if we allowed scientists to experiment on "really bad people" (insert your own definition here) then wouldn't 'scientific knowledge' take huge leaps and bounds towards solving all those nasty diseases you're so worried about? would that be worth it? or should we stick with the less useful mice and monkey subjects? Yes, fine experiment on convicted murderers, rapists etc, is that ethically right?? you may have noticed that due to science, evidence has come to light that some of these 'really bad people' weren't actually bad and have been wrongfully convicted. Oh and some of these cases have been overturned due to scientific advancements that have come about through animal experimentation! Then max says: Back to medical experiments, the way I read alert's posts is that not enough effort is being expended finding alternatives to using live animals for experiments. A tightening of the regulations may put pressure on the pharmateutical companies to spend a proportion of their massive r&d budgets on alternative methods of research. There already are very tight regulations enforced by the home office which have already been mentioned. Plus the policies of the 3 R's. Reducation, refinement and replacement. Pharmaceuticals are already spending millions on replacement each year. ie. researching alternative methods. I suggest facts are gotten straight here! If you don't think they are spending enough, I suggest you ask them to spend more. If they do that, then you had better expect that all the drugs they sell will go up in price to cover the costs, which inturn costs the NHS more and in turn will end up putting our taxes up. The government could contribute more money too, but it'll cost the tax payer. As long as you don't mind all that, then that's fine. Alert says: Yes, it is OK to butcher and eat animals and to wear their skins - if you do it yourself at least once! (how many vegetarians would we have then?) Hypocrit! Experimenting on them any more for debatable benefits is not OK in my own personal oppinion... Yes it may seem extreme but extreme measures are sometimes necessary to make change happen. debatable benefits? What's debatable, is is a fact that through animal experimentation we have discovered soooooo much. We still are. Come on! it's not as if medical experimentation is widespread and common - it's been squeezed into a corner and noone likes the idea (even the scientists) so why not stamp it out once and for all? Well that show's how much you know! Medical research is a global business. Pharmaceuticals have huge labs all over the place and there are 1000s of employees. So it is widespread and common! Please get your facts straight before making random comments as such! I know this is a very sensitive subject and look forward to your side of the debate Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
max Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 Foxxx, you seem to be very agitated by some of alert's posts, and one of mine. Have you actually read any of the information on Dr Hadwen's website, I posted the link earlier? Here are some examples of the arguments found there: It is possible to obtain human cells and tissues from biopsies, post-mortems, placentas, or as waste from surgery, and grow them in the laboratory. Cell cultures are used in many medical fields, and have contributed enormously to our understanding of the underlying mechanisms of cancer, Parkinson's disease, and AIDS. Cell cultures are routinely used in vaccine production, toxicity testing, drug development and to diagnose disease. It is important that human cells, rather than animal cells, are used for medical research, to avoid the problem of relating results from one species to another. Research at the molecular level is being used to understand the biochemistry and genetics underlying various illnesses, and leading to better treatments.....This approach is an alternative to modelling the illness in animals such as genetically modified mice. Tests with simple microorganisms, such as bacteria and yeasts, are being used as early indicators of chemicals likely to be harmful, and are frequently faster, cheaper and more humane than animal tests. Computers are increasingly being used to model the structure and actions of new drugs, and to predict their safety. Computer models of whole biological systems are now being developed on which experiments can be conducted, as alternatives to experiments on animals. My point in posting these quotes, other than they are more intelligible than my normal ramblings, is that all this is being done by a charity. Imagine how many more animal lives could be saved if the major pharmaceuticals sacrificed even 0.0025% of their profits towards an alternative to killing creatures such as mice whose physiology is so different from our own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alert_bri Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 Originally posted by Foxxx Yes I have noticed that you have no answers, you still haven't answered any of my questions, or anyone elses! I'm sorry Foxxxxxxx - I'll do my best to answer your questions Here were a couple of them: Do you take drugs when not well? I'm rarely unwell - take care to get good nutrition, water and a reasonably healthy diet every day! Only take drugs / antibiotics when totally necessary Would you prefer to be living in a world where we die young and haven't made any of the advancements that we have today? Nope, and I'd rather not be living in a world with AIDS, CJD, ebola, Chernobyl fall-out and the constant threat of terrorism - I had no control of them either - but I do enjoy all the benefits of modern science thanks! If you were diagnosed with a disease and there wasn't a cure for it, but a cure could be found by using animals what would you think to that out of interest? Would you sit and suffer or even die while scientists try to come up with an alternative method of research which could take years and years or never happen? Get real! there'll be no mad dash by scientists to find a cure for my disease in time to cure me personally - the pharmaceutical industry is profit motivated. I'd do what everyone else does - make the best of what's available! Where will the scientists get the funding from to find alternative methods? No new drugs would come onto the market in the meantime as they wouldn't have been able to put it into a human without testing it on an animal first. No new drugs, no profit, no research into alternative methods. Good point - if no new drugs were possible what do you think scientists would spend their time investigating? How about all the alternatives which do the job more naturally? and do all new drugs require animal experimentation??? I didn't realise the problem was that serious! Would you be willing to try a drug if you didn't have a clue what would happen to you when you took it? Doesn't this happen every time anyone tries an off-the-shelf drug today? Have you read the possible side-effects of the drugs you take? it'll scare you to death Where will this money come from?? People working... paying taxes and politicians sharing the cash out to the best lobbyists. (the $1Bn+ pharmaceutical industry can look after itself) Only made possible by the medical knowledge we have available, which has come at the cost of animal experimentation. Then isn't it about time we moved on from the old methods? Yes, fine experiment on convicted murderers, rapists etc, is that ethically right?? you may have noticed that due to science, evidence has come to light that some of these 'really bad people' weren't actually bad and have been wrongfully convicted. Oh and some of these cases have been overturned due to scientific advancements that have come about through animal experimentation! I'm argueing against experimenting on animals by saying it's almost as bad as experimenting on humans - you seem to have missed my point, sorry if I wasn't clear Hypocrit! I try not to be debatable benefits? What's debatable, is is a fact that through animal experimentation we have discovered soooooo much. We still are. I'm not sure about the validity of comparing results in animals with a completely different species... just doesn't make sense to me comparing mice and monkeys with humans. Well that show's how much you know! Medical research is a global business. Pharmaceuticals have huge labs all over the place and there are 1000s of employees. So it is widespread and common! Please get your facts straight before making random comments as such! I stand corrected - perhaps the problem is much worse than I feared and there are loads of these ghastly experiments going on all over the planet! Nightmare! I know this is a very sensitive subject and look forward to your side of the debate I feel quite detached myself - I wish I could do more about stopping it right now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saxon51 Posted February 6, 2004 Share Posted February 6, 2004 I can't see the necessity to experiment on animals when we've got Jeffrey Archer, the Soham killer and his bird, Saddam Hussein, and several thousand assorted muggers, rapists, child molesters and abusers at our disposal. After all, the results of the experiments would give a more accurate idea of the effects on humans. Sorry if this offends, but cuddly bunny or child killer? No contest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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