Optional ID cards on the way - resist

[carosio]

Yes, I am sure all this is the ultimate aim of the ID card. If you apply for a state benefit, or the taxman suspects that every penny of income has not been declared, or for any other reason, some junior official will be able, at the click of a mouse, to find out what you've bought, sold, where you've been, who you've been with, telephoned, emailed (here's a case for keeping letter post) and what programmes we watch if its internet TV. We are all potential criminals.

[L00b]

And still we have not heard a good reason for these things.

You must have missed it in my earlier post:

Essentially, an alternative to a passport (no different in content) which is easier to carry, less expensive to replace, and the loss or theft of which is less of an issue.

Given that anyone's NI number can already be used as a unique logical identifier to link all relevant database records and entries, therefore that our privacy is to all intents and purposes already shot, per your (very thorough and well constructed, might I add) post, there's not many other reasons to think about than mere convenience

[Cyclone]

You might want to take a look at the IMP project. It makes it clear that the security services do not currently have the capability to log all your emails, internet use and phone use as a matter of routine.

But that that's what they'd like to be able to do for the future.

[Cyclone]

You must have missed it in my earlier post:

 

Given that anyone's NI number can already be used as a unique logical identifier to link all relevant database records and entries, therefore that our privacy is to all intents and purposes already shot, per your (very thorough and well constructed, might I add) post, there's not many other reasons to think about than mere convenience

 

Currently the government doesn't link all that data, despite it being theoretically possible.

That means that a single mistake or data breach is not catastrophic for you as an individual.

So there is something very much to think about, the theoretical risk of something is not the same as it actually being implemented.

[garrence]

In reply to L00b:

 

The NI database has too many errors and inaccuracies to be usable so you'll get a new number. Otherwise yes, you are right that your NI number could become your NIR number.

 

Your NI number isn't used much for identity right now, so it's not recorded on many other databases.

 

Whose convenience? When cattle are tagged, it is for the convenience of the farmer, not the cattle.

 

With regard to using a plastic card as a replacement for a passport: Having slightly less to carry when you visit EU countries (only) is not a good reason for introducing ID cards, a big surveillance database, the key component of a surveillance state, and encouraging businesses to check cards as often as possible. A much better reason is needed to warrant the intrusion and cost. Seriously - they're not spending £20bn just so you have a few grammes less to carry through the airport on your way to Majorca.

[garrence]

Currently the government doesn't link all that data, despite it being theoretically possible.

 

Indeed, in the past it was illegal for them to do so. They had to justify each sharing of data on need versus privacy.

 

Blair tore that up and now they're encouraged collect and share as much data as possible just in case it's handy for using against you at some point.

[L00b]

Cyclone & garrence - the Gvt (and its reports) allege the data isn't linked, however I'd be mightily surprised if it is not already a de facto situation.

 

Don't get me wrong, I can be as much of a tinfoil-hat wearer as most where such issues are concerned.

 

However, I have yet to witness any excesses in those States (not only France) which have been operating a dual system (ID card + passport) for decades, as those which you moot.

 

Put simply, the UK is already a surveillance state. I'd focus my ire and efforts more against efforts to intercept, monitor and record private communications, and against further CCTV-isation of the country, than against a bit of plastic which amounts to no more than a passport-lite.

[donkey]

Currently the government doesn't link all that data, despite it being theoretically possible.

That means that a single mistake or data breach is not catastrophic for you as an individual.

 

They obviously haven't seen the film 'Brazil.'

[Cyclone]

Cyclone & garrence - the Gvt (and its reports) allege the data isn't linked, however I'd be mightily surprised if it is not already a de facto situation.

 

Don't get me wrong, I can be as much of a tinfoil-hat wearer as most where such issues are concerned.

 

However, I have yet to witness any excesses in those States (not only France) which have been operating a dual system (ID card + passport) for decades, as those which you moot.

 

Put simply, the UK is already a surveillance state. I'd focus my ire and efforts more against efforts to intercept, monitor and record private communications, and against further CCTV-isation of the country, than against a bit of plastic which amounts to no more than a passport-lite.

 

The data is not shared. It would be a massive undertaking to create software to share the data. It would need synchronising and cleansing. It would need agreement about the interfaces and co-operation from every department involved.

It would also be illegal (I don't believe that that's changed).

The ID card is well on it's way to being cancelled, the trial in Manchester has gone down like a lead balloon and the ID card does not solve any existing problem.

It will be quickly binned by the next government in order to save the massive costs that continuing the project would run up.

There are certainly other issues to worry about, but I am capable of worrying about, or disliking, multiple bits of government stupidity all at once.

[ptigga]

However, I have yet to witness any excesses in those States (not only France) which have been operating a dual system (ID card + passport) for decades, as those which you moot.

 

I can at least two high profile examples of states where ID cards and identity registers have endangered the population. I'm sure that these are not the only examples.

 

In Nazi Germany the census system was a punch-card based computer system built by IBM. It was used to identify all the people who needed to be removed from society based on the information that they had provided in the census.

 

"IBM Germany invented the racial census-listing not just religious affiliation, but bloodline going back generations. This was the Nazi data lust. Not just to count the Jews — but to identify them. " - http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/IBM.html

 

In Rwanda a National ID card system was introduced which allowed officials to easily determine the ethnicity of the holder. As recently as 1994, these ID cards were used to identify Tutsi citizens - allowing them to be singled out and systematically massacred. Read more here http://www.preventgenocide.org/edu/pastgenocides/rwanda/indangamuntu.htm

 

Footnote: I realise that this is one step removed from the simple linking of government databases that was being discussed in the thread. It's a chilling demonstration of what can happen when a government with an agenda of victimizing and scapegoating a section of the population gets their hands on this technology.