Optional ID cards on the way - resist

[llamatron]

What if your British but don't have a passport which a lot don't and if the government want us to have id cards why do WE have to pay £30 for a card that probably cost about 50p to make.

 

more to the point why would someone with a passport need an ID card-we already have one?

[truman]

My photo driving licence is up for renewal next month and that's going to cost me £30+

 

I thought it was £20?

[L00b]

I think you are comparing your ID card with the new one here which could be entirely different. A card with you dob, name, address, photo and even fingerprint I don't think is what is worrying us as it is just a passport. The worrying problem is the database part, that will inevitably cost a fortune and I think puts us at great risk from our government. If this isn't what they are planning to do they would stick to passports.

To an extent, yes, I am comparing one with the other. Because that gives me the benefit of an actual frame of reference, rather than surmising on the basis of hypotheses.

 

You can't implement any ID card system without any form of database to at least reference those which have been issued: even decades ago, in the days of the all-paper-based ID card system, there was a 'database' maintained by the Fr Gvt. Squillions of data cards, or punch cards, or... It would be nonsensical to issue ID cards without maintaining some form of Register of what has been issued when to whom.

 

I accept there are legitimate concerns over what information could or would be asked - strictly speaking, no Gvt needs to know your religious orientation and other such inessential characteristics, only that data which uniquely identifies you. Plans to record or requests for that type of inessential information should be opposed - vehemently if need be. And the cards should be free (especially if made mandatory), at first issue and when replaced at normal term (e.g. every 10 years) - in many countries that have them, you only pay if you need a replacement after losing one.

[llamatron]

To an extent, yes, I am comparing one with the other. Because that gives me the benefit of an actual frame of reference, rather than surmising on the basis of hypotheses.

 

You can't implement any ID card system without any form of database to at least reference those which have been issued: even decades ago, in the days of the all-paper-based ID card system, there was a 'database' maintained by the Fr Gvt. Squillions of data cards, or punch cards, or... It would be nonsensical to issue ID cards without maintaining some form of Register of what has been issued when to whom.

 

I accept there are legitimate concerns over what information could or would be asked - strictly speaking, no Gvt needs to know your religious orientation and other such inessential characteristics, only that data which uniquely identifies you. Plans to record or requests for that type of inessential information should be opposed - vehemently if need be. And the cards should be free (especially if made mandatory), at first issue and when replaced at normal term (e.g. every 10 years) - in many countries that have them, you only pay if you need a replacement after losing one.

 

Im pretty sure your ID card is effectively the same as our passport. So we have the same frame of reference.

[L00b]

Im pretty sure your ID card is effectively the same as our passport. So we have the same frame of reference.

Not quite, because my ID card does not allow me to travel to the States or China (e.g.). It doesn't record where have I been and when (in the way Custom entry/exit stamps do in passports) ...unless EU Gvts already record this electronically at points of entry? ( @ Cyclone).

 

There's the functional aspect of ID card vs passport, as well as the difference in form. And when I say 'frame of reference', that encompasses uses the Gvt actually makes of the data (which is...just about none).

 

There's a cultural dimension to that frame of reference as well: as I posted before, I have always had an ID card, the same as my parents, their parents, my relatives, my friends, etc. Save as to the legitimate concerns I've acknowleged above, I find it hard to fathom the current concerns about having an ID card in this country, because having one always on me in my wallet and using it for intra-EU travel (rather than lug a passport about) is second-nature to me (I never even have to think about remembering to take my passport) and has been for several decades. That's the kind of convenience I was referring to earlier. (Moreover, I'd rather lose my ID card than my passport, it's much easier and cheaper to replace, with far less hoops to jump through)

 

All that said, there's no reason why the UK Gvt needs different databases for ID cards and passports. But that's just common sense, which can be in fairly short-supply in those spheres

[irenewilde]

I'd be quite happy with an ID card. I think they're a good idea.

[truman]

I'd be quite happy with an ID card. I think they're a good idea.

 

 

Why? Serious question..not being argumentative

[alchresearch]

find it hard to fathom the current concerns about having an ID card in this country, because having one always on me in my wallet and using it for intra-EU travel (rather than lug a passport about) is second-nature to me (I never even have to think about remembering to take my passport) and has been for several decades. That's the kind of convenience I was referring to earlier. (Moreover, I'd rather lose my ID card than my passport, it's much easier and cheaper to replace, with far less hoops to jump through)

 

Me too, I always carry my driving licence. It's a very handy form of ID that gets requested more than you realise.

 

I was watching one of those "police cops" shows last week where one guy was continually giving the plod false details. It took ages for it to get sorted. Having a card would have eliminated his waste of police time.

 

And in the past I've also cited on here an example where an ID card could have been used to prevent benefit fraud by an extended Indian family.

[Cyclone]

To an extent, yes, I am comparing one with the other. Because that gives me the benefit of an actual frame of reference, rather than surmising on the basis of hypotheses.

 

You can't implement any ID card system without any form of database to at least reference those which have been issued: even decades ago, in the days of the all-paper-based ID card system, there was a 'database' maintained by the Fr Gvt. Squillions of data cards, or punch cards, or... It would be nonsensical to issue ID cards without maintaining some form of Register of what has been issued when to whom.

 

I accept there are legitimate concerns over what information could or would be asked - strictly speaking, no Gvt needs to know your religious orientation and other such inessential characteristics, only that data which uniquely identifies you. Plans to record or requests for that type of inessential information should be opposed - vehemently if need be. And the cards should be free (especially if made mandatory), at first issue and when replaced at normal term (e.g. every 10 years) - in many countries that have them, you only pay if you need a replacement after losing one.

 

There's a massive difference between a list of who has been issued what serial number of ID card and a huge database that is queried in real time by all and sundry on the presentation (or when they feel like it) of your ID card.

The bit of plastic is of no risk to anyone, the massive centralised database is what all the reasonable objections are based on.

[Cyclone]

Not quite, because my ID card does not allow me to travel to the States or China (e.g.). It doesn't record where have I been and when (in the way Custom entry/exit stamps do in passports) ...unless EU Gvts already record this electronically at points of entry? ( @ Cyclone).

 

There's the functional aspect of ID card vs passport, as well as the difference in form. And when I say 'frame of reference', that encompasses uses the Gvt actually makes of the data (which is...just about none).

 

There's a cultural dimension to that frame of reference as well: as I posted before, I have always had an ID card, the same as my parents, their parents, my relatives, my friends, etc. Save as to the legitimate concerns I've acknowleged above, I find it hard to fathom the current concerns about having an ID card in this country, because having one always on me in my wallet and using it for intra-EU travel (rather than lug a passport about) is second-nature to me (I never even have to think about remembering to take my passport) and has been for several decades. That's the kind of convenience I was referring to earlier. (Moreover, I'd rather lose my ID card than my passport, it's much easier and cheaper to replace, with far less hoops to jump through)

 

All that said, there's no reason why the UK Gvt needs different databases for ID cards and passports. But that's just common sense, which can be in fairly short-supply in those spheres

 

Given that you can drive straight across most EU borders without being stopped, including in and out of Switzerland (not part of the EU), no the EU does not routinely record travel. The UK with the eBorders project will be doing so. I know people who are working on eBorders (I turned down an interview a few weeks ago).