Optional ID cards on the way - resist

[Cyclone]

Me too, I always carry my driving licence. It's a very handy form of ID that gets requested more than you realise.

 

I was watching one of those "police cops" shows last week where one guy was continually giving the plod false details. It took ages for it to get sorted. Having a card would have eliminated his waste of police time.

 

And in the past I've also cited on here an example where an ID card could have been used to prevent benefit fraud by an extended Indian family.

 

I would be surprised how often it's requested. The reason being that I don't routinely carry any ID and apart from when entering secured MOD sites have never found that to be a problem.

I'm sure being able to demand to see your papers would make life easier for the police, but we don't (currently) live in a police state and I don't want to.

How does your fraud example get stopped by an ID card, I've not seen that post.

[L00b]

There's a massive difference between a list of who has been issued what serial number of ID card and a huge database that is queried in real time by all and sundry on the presentation (or when they feel like it) of your ID card.

The bit of plastic is of no risk to anyone, the massive centralised database is what all the reasonable objections are based on.

Seems to me conditions surrounding access to, and consultation of, the "massive centralised database" is what requires scrutiny, not the database itself. For my personal edification, in what way would this database be more "massive" and "centralised" than the current one used for passports? (and, perhaps more importantly, why couldn't the passport DB be re-used? i.e. that DB's data for those already with a passport who want and ID card, and just use the same structure for those w/out a passport who want an ID card)

Given that you can drive straight across most EU borders without being stopped, including in and out of Switzerland (not part of the EU), no the EU does not routinely record travel. The UK with the eBorders project will be doing so. I know people who are working on eBorders (I turned down an interview a few weeks ago).

I did not say 'EU', I said some Gvts (including the UK) Note that it seems to depend on the mode of transport, and it seems to include Shengen signatories as well. E.g. Ireland and France seem to record at the airport occasionally (EU Member State ID card or passport is electronically scanned at arrival at Customs desk, but not always ), but no apparent recordal (no scan) at Irish or Belgian ferry terminals (we lived in Dublin for 4 years until 2008 and went through the airport and the ferry terminals at least a dozen times a year, and we've been doing the Hull-Zeebrugge by private car at least twice a year for the last 15 years)

[Cyclone]

The passport database stores very little information, it is centralised, but is only accessible by a very limited number of departments.

 

The proposed ID card database will contain much more information, including biometrics. The plan is to make it accessible to pretty much every government agency, it's wide open to inappropriate access and a single breach could see the loss of a large body of your personal data instead of the very limited amount in the passport database.

 

You said

 

unless EU Gvts already record this electronically at points of entry? ( @ Cyclone).

Maybe you meant to say 'some' EU gvts, but you didn't.

 

The scan of the barcode may or may not record the data, I can only speak for the UK which plans to record all entries and departures by 2014 (i think that's right). The rest of europe certainly doesn't as they have open borders within their countries and to various outside points.

[L00b]

The passport database stores very little information, it is centralised, but is only accessible by a very limited number of departments.

 

The proposed ID card database will contain much more information, including biometrics.

Does "much more information" = biometrics? or much more information altogether (relative to the passport DB), of which biometrics is only a part? Define 'much more information' (or link if you please )

The plan is to make it accessible to pretty much every government agency, it's wide open to inappropriate access and a single breach could see the loss of a large body of your personal data instead of the very limited amount in the passport database.

Given the Gvt's record for data safety (and handling of data breaches), yes, that is a real concern. In the same way there's no need for the Gvt to store personal information which is non-essential for identifying purposes, there's no need for every Gvt agency to have access to the DB - only those which require certainty of identity in their mission (police, social services, inland revenue, off the top of my head).

Maybe you meant to say 'some' EU gvts, but you didn't.

Has the EU got several Gvts? Or are there several Gvts in the EU? You're needlessly splitting hairs

[llamatron]

"We were dual fuel, but I'll spare you the story about the gas side of things, I would need at least 5 pages' worth of thread to explain how it all went dismally wrong, through no fault of ours: a really bad case of computers talking to computers, and never a human eye shall check and sort."

 

I will admit accidentally stalking you but doesn't this scare you about a massive computer database with all your details on? It does scare me one key stroke and "whoops you don't exist". It seems to happen to all my electrical equipment-go onto a website for some kind of help and you have to type in your serial number but it doesn't exist

[esme]

Does "much more information" = biometrics? or much more information altogether (relative to the passport DB), of which biometrics is only a part? Define 'much more information' (or link if you please )

 

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2006/ukpga_20060015_en_5#sch1

 

Personal information

 

1 The following may be recorded in an individual’s entry in the Register—

 

(a) his full name;

 

(b) other names by which he is or has been known;

 

© his date of birth;

 

(d) his place of birth;

 

(e) his gender;

 

(f) the address of his principal place of residence in the United Kingdom;

 

(g) the address of every other place in the United Kingdom or elsewhere where he has a place of residence.

 

Identifying information

 

2 The following may be recorded in an individual’s entry in the Register—

 

(a) a photograph of his head and shoulders (showing the features of the face);

 

(b) his signature;

 

© his fingerprints;

 

(d) other biometric information about him.

 

Residential status

 

3 The following may be recorded in an individual’s entry in the Register—

 

(a) his nationality;

 

(b) his entitlement to remain in the United Kingdom;

 

© where that entitlement derives from a grant of leave to enter or remain in the United Kingdom, the terms and conditions of that leave.

Personal reference numbers etc.

 

4 (1) The following may be recorded in an individual’s entry in the Register—

 

(a) his National Identity Registration Number;

 

(b) the number of any ID card issued to him;

 

© any national insurance number allocated to him;

 

(d) the number of any immigration document relating to him;

 

(e) the number of any United Kingdom passport (within the meaning of the Immigration Act 1971 (c. 77)) that has been issued to him;

 

(f) the number of any passport issued to him by or on behalf of the authorities of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom or by or on behalf of an international organisation;

 

(g) the number of any document that can be used by him (in some or all circumstances) instead of a passport;

 

(h) the number of any identity card issued to him by the authorities of a country or territory outside the United Kingdom;

 

(i) any reference number allocated to him by the Secretary of State in connection with an application made by him for permission to enter or to remain in the United Kingdom;

 

(j) the number of any work permit (within the meaning of the Immigration Act 1971) relating to him;

 

(k) any driver number given to him by a driving licence;

 

(l) the number of any designated document which is held by him and is a document the number of which does not fall within any of the preceding sub-paragraphs;

 

(m) the date of expiry or period of validity of a document the number of which is recorded by virtue of this paragraph.

 

Record history

 

5 The following may be recorded in an individual’s entry in the Register—

 

(a) information falling within the preceding paragraphs that has previously been recorded about him in the Register;

 

(b) particulars of changes affecting that information and of changes made to his entry in the Register;

 

© his date of death.

 

Registration and ID card history

 

6 The following may be recorded in an individual’s entry in the Register—

 

(a) the date of every application for registration made by him;

 

(b) the date of every application by him for a modification of the contents of his entry;

 

© the date of every application by him confirming the contents of his entry (with or without changes);

 

(d) the reason for any omission from the information recorded in his entry;

 

(e) particulars (in addition to its number) of every ID card issued to him;

 

(f) whether each such card is in force and, if not, why not;

 

(g) particulars of every person who has countersigned an application by him for an ID card or a designated document, so far as those particulars were included on the application;

 

(h) particulars of every notification given by him for the purposes of regulations under section 11(1) (lost, stolen and damaged ID cards etc.);

 

(i) particulars of every requirement by the Secretary of State for the individual to surrender an ID card issued to him.

Validation information

 

7 The following may be recorded in the entry in the Register for an individual—

 

(a) the information provided in connection with every application by him to be entered in the Register, for a modification of the contents of his entry or for the issue of an ID card;

 

(b) the information provided in connection with every application by him confirming his entry in the Register (with or without changes);

 

© particulars of the steps taken, in connection with an application mentioned in paragraph (a) or (b) or otherwise, for identifying the applicant or for verifying the information provided in connection with the application;

 

(d) particulars of any other steps taken or information obtained (otherwise than in connection with an application mentioned in paragraph (a) or (b)) for ensuring that there is a complete, up-to-date and accurate entry about that individual in the Register;

 

(e) particulars of every notification given by that individual for the purposes of section 10.

 

Security information

 

8 The following may be recorded in the entry in the Register for an individual—

 

(a) a personal identification number to be used for facilitating the making of applications for information recorded in his entry, and for facilitating the provision of the information;

 

(b) a password or other code to be used for that purpose or particulars of a method of generating such a password or code;

 

© questions and answers to be used for identifying a person seeking to make such an application or to apply for or to make a modification of that entry.

 

Records of provision of information

 

9 The following may be recorded in the entry in the Register for an individual—

 

(a) particulars of every occasion on which information contained in the individual’s entry has been provided to a person;

 

(b) particulars of every person to whom such information has been provided on such an occasion;

 

© other particulars, in relation to each such occasion, of the provision of the information.

I know it uses the phrase "may be recorded" a lot but do you seriously think that it won't be, every time the question has been asked if such and so a piece of information will be recorded the answer comes back that it may be, not that it won't, which is about as close to saying "yes" as a politician ever gets

[alchresearch]

How does your fraud example get stopped by an ID card, I've not seen that post.

 

It was on a DNA thread some time ago. A number of families were claiming for the same relative, wheeling her (literally!) between houses when inspectors called to check benefit claims.

 

If she'd been ID'ed as soon as she was in the country, it would have flagged her as being the same person.

[L00b]

I will admit accidentally stalking you but doesn't this scare you about a massive computer database with all your details on? It does scare me one key stroke and "whoops you don't exist". It seems to happen to all my electrical equipment-go onto a website for some kind of help and you have to type in your serial number but it doesn't exist

My very first Intertube stalker! How thoughtful!

 

Joke aside, not really. Similar circumstances have happened countless times to countless people, however not in relation to official records and/or "black helicopters scenarios" Many Gvt organisations in several EU countries have my personal data (because I worked and/or lived there awhile), not ever had or heard of any anecdotes or cases to worry me in that respect.

 

I've had countless similar run-ins as that 'gas one', which is why I'm well used to sort out such situations, often as not surprising the 'culprits' by how well and quick I explain things with more supporting evidence than they need or can shake a stick at

[L00b]

I know it uses the phrase "may be recorded" a lot but do you seriously think that it won't be, every time the question has been asked if such and so a piece of information will be recorded the answer comes back that it may be, not that it won't, which is about as close to saying "yes" as a politician ever gets

Thanks for that post, esme.

 

So, OK, it records centrally such additional data as NI number and driving license number, and data in relation to a legally-sanctioned permanent or temporary immigrant status.

 

Other than that, where in that list is the information in relation to race, religion, political bias...?

 

Nice to see provisions for accountability of the data requester(s), btw (section 9).

[ptigga]

I just want to point out the particularly obnoxious pieces of data from the ones in this list. A lot of them look fairly innocuous until you read into them:

 

Section 4

 

(l) the number of any designated document which is held by him and is a document the number of which does not fall within any of the preceding sub-paragraphs;

 

(m) the date of expiry or period of validity of a document the number of which is recorded by virtue of this paragraph.

 

Any document can be linked to your record. This is most likely to be used for storing the primary keys for records about you in other government databases.

 

If you have a record in the Police National Computer then expect the ID number of that record to be stored here.

 

If you have had CRB checks then expect those documents to be linked here.

 

If you have an entry in the police DNA database then expect that entry to be linked here.

 

If you have a record on NHS spine containing details of your medical history then expect that entry to be linked here.

 

If there are records relating to you in the Communications Intercept database then expect those to be linked here.

 

9 The following may be recorded in the entry in the Register for an individual—

 

(a) particulars of every occasion on which information contained in the individual’s entry has been provided to a person;

 

(b) particulars of every person to whom such information has been provided on such an occasion;

 

© other particulars, in relation to each such occasion, of the provision of the information.

 

These provisions allow any access to your record to be recorded, so there will be a record of every time your card has been checked. This could be you actively handing your card to an official, or to a 3rd party (such as a bank, for the purposes of opening a bank account). It could conceivably be automatic checks by RFID readers in airports or train stations that record every ID card that passes within the range of the reader. Thus allowing the location of your card at set points to be recorded for life.