Optional ID cards on the way - resist

[L00b]

This is a level 1 check. It involves a visual glance at the card to compare the name and photo, then copy the number.

 

No check is made with the database and the information on the chip isn't checked. If you had access to a card printer and some ID card blanks then you could produce fakes that would pass that test.

 

Even without the official ID card blanks it would still be possible to knock up a template for a passable fake, and that template could be used to create lots of fakes, so it would be an economical model.

Maybe for UK ones. As posted earlier, I can't speak about them since I haven't seen one.

 

You could try to mock one up for Level 1 checks. French ones are laminated in a peculiar way, have hologram + UV markers (and those features are checked in shops, but no electronic swiping that I've ever seen).

 

I don't believe there's ever been any case of blank ID cards going AWOL (there's no transport involved, as I explained earlier they're made from scratch in a single place for every French person, be they residing in France, the UK, the US, Japan, China...wherever).

 

For nationals in jurisdiction, finished ID cards are sent by prefectoral post (i.e. not 'Royal Mail' equivalent, but special 'non-public' Gvt mail). For overseas nationals, finished ID cards are sent by embassy post (again, not 'Royal Mail' equivalent, but special 'non-public' Gvt mail).

 

People have to go get them, once ready, from the préfecture (in France) or embassy (overseas) in person. There's strictly no posting (even recorded or special delivery), no exceptions. Whether the préfecture is next door or 70 miles away, and whether the embassy is next door or 500 miles away, doesn't matter (bit of pain for me having to go to London for mine (ID card/passport), but hey it's only every 10 years or so). If you don't pick it up within 3 months from delivery at the préfecture or embassy, it's destroyed, and start again.

[llamatron]

you have to go to london to collect your ID card?? That is completely mental! Is it open on weekends? That sounds like a massive waste of time, effort and money?

[L00b]

you have to go to london to collect your ID card?? That is completely mental! Is it open on weekends? That sounds like a massive waste of time, effort and money?

And my passport, if/when I need a replacement.

 

No, it's not open on weekends, and it shuts early on Fridays (of course ). And now I've got double the hassle, since my little one turned 5 and it's time for her to get her own ID card/passport, on top of her UK passport.

 

It's not "mental" once you factor in the benefits (direct and indirect) associated with complete prevention of ID theft, by eliminating any possible misappropriation of ID cards through postal theft or postal loss. Noone else can possibly obtain my ID card but me (unless I lose it, once I have it). Not even my Mrs or my parents, even if they have a power of attorney.

 

You or another poster was on about the loss/theft of blank UK passports or the potential for the loss/theft of blank UK ID cards, earlier on. This eventuality is impossible with that system, whether blanks or finished ones.

 

ID is serious and highly secure business in France: that place which manufactures ID cards has better security than the presidential palace, about the same as the Banque de France which prints € and stores gold reserves

[Cyclone]

Well, for that one I'll refer you to my earlier posts in relation to fake-proof (for now) ID cards. Can't speak about proposed UK ones, I have yet to see one or learn about their planned features.

 

Moreover, even if a fake ID was possible, it would very likely to be economically unviable: it would have to be produced (expensively) and used fraudulently within a 24 to 48-hour window max, assuming the real chequebook owner reports the loss or theft of the chequebook within 24 hours. I'll let you envisage the kind and extent of logistics required from the crims, to make that operational time period worthwhile.

 

The store is quids in, that is true, but so is the bank eventually: the issue with banks guaranteeing cheques, rather than individuals who can be sued personally for their bouncing cheques, is that you and I and every Joe Bloggs end up paying for the fraudulent use through insurance premiums and/or bank services expense and/or retention of bank operational savings (for provisioning exta for bad debts).

 

I can't see how the ID card is any more effective than a cheque guarantee card in this way. The same arguments apply about forging them and stealing the cheque book and using it before it's reported stolen (actually is that relevant, how does a store know that's it's been reported?).

At the very outside, this is simply an argument for banks (if they wished) to print your picture on your card. Clearly they aren't worried enough about cheque fraud to bother, in which case the ID card is 'solving' a problem that doesn't exist.

 

Are there any actual, real problems, that currently exist and can only be solved by a multi billion pound, intrusive, id card system?

[L00b]

I can't see how the ID card is any more effective than a cheque guarantee card in this way. At the very outside, this is simply an argument for banks (if they wished) to print your picture on your card.

You are correct in that either could be used for athenticating ownership of a chequebook (e.g.). That said, the ID card has address data, the bank card doesn't (unless it's encoded in the magstripe or chip? I don't believe it is, but am open to correction). This is useful in case prosecution or a suit is required, following fraud/bouncing. Generally, financial crims do not resort to chequebook fraud over there, because of that reason.

 

At the end of the day, I can't see how a bank card guarantees my identity as well as an ID card: even with a photo on the bank card, I could have opened a bank account under an assumed identity (provided I have just enough utility bills and the like in the made-up name to pass muster). Bit harder to fool the Gvt, I think.

 

Refer my first post in this thread (I think ): for certainty of identification, my conveyancing solicitor wasn't happy with my original French passport, but was happy with a certified photocopy of my bank card. That was 2 weeks ago or so. The mind boggles.

Clearly they aren't worried enough about cheque fraud to bother, in which case the ID card is 'solving' a problem that doesn't exist.

Don't several UK banks now issue Switch and CC cards with the owner's pix on them (still optional, I think).

The same arguments apply about forging them and stealing the cheque book and using it before it's reported stolen (actually is that relevant, how does a store know that's it's been reported?).

In many if not most retail outlets in France (certainly all supermarkets), cheques are 'authorised' and printed by the POS (slide cheque in, and POS prints amount, payee etc. on it, then customer signs). The cheque barcode is read when it is inserted in the POS, and authorised in the same way you get auth for a CC transaction (or not, if reported lost/stolen).

 

That's why, to say France has had chip-and-pin since the late 80s, payment by cheque still endures there: it's more-or-less just as convenient as entering a pin.

 

That's not saying there won't always be exceptions that make opportunistic, fraudulent use of a stolen chequebook or ID card worthwhile. E.g. pay at a corner or village shop without a cheque-checking POS or ID card checking devices. But they're very much the (infinitely small) exception, relative to the general system and its scale. Village and corner shops know better than to accept cheques anyway, cash or PIN all the way just like here

[esme]

Taken from the Home Office website:

 

ID cards — the benefits

* a universal and simple proof of identity that brings convenience for organisations and individuals – that means an end to the disorganised use of photocopied bank statements, phone bills and birth certificates

 

* the Service will give you control of who can see your personal details – that means an end to revealing details about your finances or personal life just to prove who you are and where you live

 

* ensuring that foreign nationals living, working and studying here legally are able to easily prove their identity and prevent those here illegally from benefiting from the privileges of Britain

 

* convenient travel in Europe using the identity card.

 

I have to say that I'm not currently happy about people seeing my credit card details and purchases when I have to use it as a form of ID proof.

so this is what we are buying with £5.4 Billion pounds of tax revenue plus the individual cost per head

 

I've only ever needed to show my birth certificate once and before I got my drivers license and passport my cheque book, cheque card and a utility bill with a sample of my signature sufficed so point 1 doesn't work as far as I'm concerned

 

I've never had to reveal details of my finances or personal life, so point 2 doesn't apply and if you have to show them a credit card bill fold it so the purchases are hidden, they only need to see the address and if they won't accept that walk away, it's your custom they lose

 

foreign nationals living here will have passports from their country of origin, if they can't produce this or they cannot produce a birth certificate showing they were born here then it's highly likely they are illegal so investigate them further and if necessary deport them, point 3 doesn't work either

 

to get an ID card I need to already have a passport, if I have a passport I don't need an ID card to travel to Europe, so point 4 is vapourware as well

 

so we are left a scheme that has no benefit costing us £540 million per year in tax plus the £30 to £60 per individual, hands up everyone who thinks that is good value for money

[Cyclone]

You are correct in that either could be used for athenticating ownership of a chequebook (e.g.). That said, the ID card has address data, the bank card doesn't (unless it's encoded in the magstripe or chip? I don't believe it is, but am open to correction). This is useful in case prosecution or a suit is required, following fraud/bouncing. Generally, financial crims do not resort to chequebook fraud over there, because of that reason.

 

At the end of the day, I can't see how a bank card guarantees my identity as well as an ID card: even with a photo on the bank card, I could have opened a bank account under an assumed identity (provided I have just enough utility bills and the like in the made-up name to pass muster). Bit harder to fool the Gvt, I think.

Given that you need a passport or driving license as proof of ID, it's no easier or difficult to open a fake bank account when ID cards do not exist.

The ID card simply replicates the function of the passport in this respect.

 

Refer my first post in this thread (I think ): for certainty of identification, my conveyancing solicitor wasn't happy with my original French passport, but was happy with a certified photocopy of my bank card. That was 2 weeks ago or so. The mind boggles.

Don't several UK banks now issue Switch and CC cards with the owner's pix on them (still optional, I think).

Very strange solicitor. I've never heard of any switch or CC card with pictures on them, but if they exist that supports my argument that the ID card is unnecessary.

 

In many if not most retail outlets in France (certainly all supermarkets), cheques are 'authorised' and printed by the POS (slide cheque in, and POS prints amount, payee etc. on it, then customer signs). The cheque barcode is read when it is inserted in the POS, and authorised in the same way you get auth for a CC transaction (or not, if reported lost/stolen).

 

That's why, to say France has had chip-and-pin since the late 80s, payment by cheque still endures there: it's more-or-less just as convenient as entering a pin.

 

That's not saying there won't always be exceptions that make opportunistic, fraudulent use of a stolen chequebook or ID card worthwhile. E.g. pay at a corner or village shop without a cheque-checking POS or ID card checking devices. But they're very much the (infinitely small) exception, relative to the general system and its scale. Village and corner shops know better than to accept cheques anyway, cash or PIN all the way just like here

None of which justifies the existence of a multi billion pound ID card scheme.

[L00b]

Given that you need a passport or driving license as proof of ID

Not necessarily UK ones. There are EU countries where obtaining a photo-bearing driving license under an alternative identity is very easy. I'm looking west of here as I type

None of which justifies the existence of a multi billion pound ID card scheme.

It was not a justification (let's be objective and blunt: there cannot be any, which will satisfy naysayers), just an example of usage

[esme]

just as there cannot be any counterargument that will convert the id card faithful ?

[llamatron]

And my passport, if/when I need a replacement.

 

No, it's not open on weekends, and it shuts early on Fridays (of course ). And now I've got double the hassle, since my little one turned 5 and it's time for her to get her own ID card/passport, on top of her UK passport.

 

It's not "mental" once you factor in the benefits (direct and indirect) associated with complete prevention of ID theft, by eliminating any possible misappropriation of ID cards through postal theft or postal loss. Noone else can possibly obtain my ID card but me (unless I lose it, once I have it). Not even my Mrs or my parents, even if they have a power of attorney.

 

You or another poster was on about the loss/theft of blank UK passports or the potential for the loss/theft of blank UK ID cards, earlier on. This eventuality is impossible with that system, whether blanks or finished ones.

 

ID is serious and highly secure business in France: that place which manufactures ID cards has better security than the presidential palace, about the same as the Banque de France which prints € and stores gold reserves

 

 

It costs a lot of money to go to london, I think the ID cards would lose a lot of support if that were the case here.

 

haha just saw the other bit of your post-you think it would not be possible for them to lose blank cards-thats precious