Women who wear burkhas in public in France will be fined

[titusmax]

My daughter used to argue like that when she was ten:hihi: And spell like that too.

 

 

 

 

Have they built a new council estate at Dore now?

 

if the french have got the backbone to ban the burka the uk must to.

[Rupert_Baehr]

Since the thread is about burkhas, I'll start with that.

 

I don't think anybody should be forced to wear a burkha ... Not even Jon Snow.

 

As to whether they should be allowed to wear a burkha, that's a more difficult question.

 

If I were to walk into a bank wearing a crash helmet, people would be upset. 'Security reasons'. I accept that. Similarly, presumably if somebody was to walk into a bank wearing a burkha, the same rule would apply.

 

I often wear a crash helmet - 'cos I ride a bike - but when I talk to people, I flip up the face piece (it's a flip-face helmet.) In the Western world, it is considered to be discourteous to hide your face when you are talking to somebody.

 

'Aah! but the people who wear burkhas are usually Muslims' (pace Jon Snow.) So what? it's still considered to be discourteous to hide your face from somebody when you speak to them and most people accept that when they are in somebody else's society/country/community, it is only proper that they should not behave in a manner which is considered to be rude or offensive. If hiding your face is considered to be rude or offensive in a country, don't do it.

 

The original French argument was that they are a secular country and because they don't allow Christian children to wear Christian paraphernalia in schools, they should forbid Muslim children to wear the robes and accoutrements of their religion/culture in schools. That has now expanded to limit the wearing of burkhas in public ... a bit of a leap, perhaps.

 

Does that mean that Priests in France will no longer be allowed to walk around wearing a soutâne? Are Nuns no longer allowed to wear their habits? If the Pope should visit France, will he be required to wear a suit (or a pair of jeans)? - France is, after all, a secular country.

 

The French (and others) might cite 'security reasons' to prohibit the burkha and they might talk about being a secular country, but there could be another reason (which isn't anti-Muslim.)

 

Some countries may have encouraged immigration because their governments wished to change the make-up of the population. Some countries seem to wish so fervently to be seen as being 'multiu-culti' that they are more than happy to suppress their own culture to encourage immigrants to 'do their own thing' and establish theirs.

 

Others do not. They accept - and indeed welcome - immigrants, but they expect the immigrants to blend in with their own culture; they are unwilling to change their culture to suit the immigrants.

 

I suspect that might apply to the French. They are proud of their culture (perhaps rightly so), they have a large immigrant population - particularly a large Muslim immigrant population and they are genuinely concerned that, although they're not going to be a minority anytime soon, their culture will become diluted. They are perhaps also concerned that certain groups might set up a 'society within a society' rather than integrate into French society.

 

IMO, that's their right. If a French woman was to go to Saudi Arabia, she would be required to wear a burkha in public and would not be permitted to drive a car. Those are the rules in Saudi Arabia. - If that French woman didn't like those rules, she wouldn't be obliged to stay there, but she would be obliged to obey them while she was there.

 

I don't see why it shouldn't work both ways.

[bizzle]

if the french have got the backbone to ban the burka the uk must to.

 

France says jump & surprise surprise the UK says how high? Is Tony blood on his hands Blair back as Prime Minister?

[titusmax]

Since the thread is about burkhas, I'll start with that.

 

I don't think anybody should be forced to wear a burkha ... Not even Jon Snow.

 

As to whether they should be allowed to wear a burkha, that's a more difficult question.

 

If I were to walk into a bank wearing a crash helmet, people would be upset. 'Security reasons'. I accept that. Similarly, presumably if somebody was to walk into a bank wearing a burkha, the same rule would apply.

 

I often wear a crash helmet - 'cos I ride a bike - but when I talk to people, I flip up the face piece (it's a flip-face helmet.) In the Western world, it is considered to be discourteous to hide your face when you are talking to somebody.

 

'Aah! but the people who wear burkhas are usually Muslims' (pace Jon Snow.) So what? it's still considered to be discourteous to hide your face from somebody when you speak to them and most people accept that when they are in somebody else's society/country/community, it is only proper that they should not behave in a manner which is considered to be rude or offensive. If hiding your face is considered to be rude or offensive in a country, don't do it.

 

The original French argument was that they are a secular country and because they don't allow Christian children to wear Christian paraphernalia in schools, they should forbid Muslim children to wear the robes and accoutrements of their religion/culture in schools. That has now expanded to limit the wearing of burkhas in public ... a bit of a leap, perhaps.

 

Does that mean that Priests in France will no longer be allowed to walk around wearing a soutâne? Are Nuns no longer allowed to wear their habits? If the Pope should visit France, will he be required to wear a suit (or a pair of jeans)? - France is, after all, a secular country.

 

The French (and others) might cite 'security reasons' to prohibit the burkha and they might talk about being a secular country, but there could be another reason (which isn't anti-Muslim.)

 

Some countries may have encouraged immigration because their governments wished to change the make-up of the population. Some countries seem to wish so fervently to be seen as being 'multiu-culti' that they are more than happy to suppress their own culture to encourage immigrants to 'do their own thing' and establish theirs.

 

Others do not. They accept - and indeed welcome - immigrants, but they expect the immigrants to blend in with their own culture; they are unwilling to change their culture to suit the immigrants.

 

I suspect that might apply to the French. They are proud of their culture (perhaps rightly so), they have a large immigrant population - particularly a large Muslim immigrant population and they are genuinely concerned that, although they're not going to be a minority anytime soon, their culture will become diluted. They are perhaps also concerned that certain groups might set up a 'society within a society' rather than integrate into French society.

 

IMO, that's their right. If a French woman was to go to Saudi Arabia, she would be required to wear a burkha in public and would not be permitted to drive a car. Those are the rules in Saudi Arabia. - If that French woman didn't like those rules, she wouldn't be obliged to stay there, but she would be obliged to obey them while she was there.

 

I don't see why it shouldn't work both ways.

 

well done, spot on, you put that way better than anyone so far. i agree totally with your post.

[bizzle]

RB, I think you need to update yourself on Saudi Arabia's traditions perhaps many moons ago that may have applied but I think you shall find women are allowed to drive & would not be required to wear the burkha in SA unless she was in the holliest area (spelling error) Mekkah or Madinah. Jeddah, Riyadh & I think the other city is Tabuk (maybe wrong) is very cosmopolitan & no different to being in central London but only better shopping wise.

 

Most of the women are that rich there they don't need to drive.

[Rupert_Baehr]

It's a long time since I've been to London, so I can't comment on the morés and rules there, but here's an extract from the current US dept of State briefing for personnel travelling to or in Saudi Arabia:

 

Standards of Conduct and Religious Police: Islam is the official religion of the country and pervades all aspects of life in Saudi Arabia. Public display of non-Islamic religious articles such as crosses and Bibles is not permitted. Travel to Makkah (Mecca) and Medina, the cities where the two holiest mosques of Islam are located, is forbidden to non-Muslims.

 

The norms for public behavior in Saudi Arabia are extremely conservative, and religious police, known as Mutawwa, are charged with enforcing these standards. Mutawwa are required to carry special identification and usually are accompanied by uniformed police; however, in some cases they have detained persons even without police presence. To ensure that conservative standards of conduct are observed, the Saudi religious police have accosted or arrested foreigners, including U.S. citizens, for improper dress or other alleged infractions, such as consumption of alcohol or association by a female with a male to whom she is not related. While most incidents have resulted only in inconvenience or embarrassment, the potential exists for an individual to be physically harmed or deported. U.S. citizens who are involved in an incident with the Mutawwa should report the incident to the U.S. Embassy in Riyadh or the U.S. Consulates General in Jeddah or Dhahran.

 

The Saudi Embassy in Washington advises women traveling to Saudi Arabia to dress in a conservative fashion in public, wearing ankle-length dresses with long sleeves and not pants. In many areas of Saudi Arabia, particularly Riyadh and the central part of the Kingdom, Mutawwa pressure women to wear a full-length black covering known as an Abaya, and to cover their heads. Most women in these areas therefore wear an Abaya and carry a headscarf to avoid being accosted. Women who appear to be of Arab or Asian origin, especially those presumed to be Muslims, face a greater risk of being confronted. (My underlining)

 

Some Mutawwa try to enforce the rule that men and women who are beyond childhood years may not mingle in public unless they are family or close relatives. Mutawwa may ask to see proof that a couple is married or related. Women who are arrested for socializing with a man who is not a relative may be charged with prostitution. Some restaurants, particularly fast-food outlets, have refused to serve women who are not accompanied by a close male relative. In addition, many restaurants no longer have a "family section" in which women are permitted to eat. These restrictions are not always posted, and in some cases women violating this policy have been arrested. This is more common in Riyadh and the more conservative central Nejd region.

 

In public, dancing, playing music, and showing movies are forbidden.

 

Then from a CNN article dated 5 Mar 2009:

 

Woman arrested in Saudi Arabia for driving.

Women are barred from driving in most of Saudi Arabia, with rural areas being the exception.

 

It is not known how frequent such arrests are in Saudi Arabia, and arrest statistics are not released.

 

The issue has become one of the more controversial ones for Saudi Arabia in recent years. While women's rights activists in the country have been openly campaigning for the right to drive, many high ranking officials maintain it is a societal issue and will be resolved only when Saudis feel the time is right.

Last year, more than 125 women signed and sent a petition to Saudi Interior Minister Nayef bin Abdul Aziz, asking that the ban on women driving in the kingdom to be overturned

[boyfriday]

If a French woman was to go to Saudi Arabia, she would be required to wear a burkha in public and would not be permitted to drive a car. Those are the rules in Saudi Arabia. - If that French woman didn't like those rules, she wouldn't be obliged to stay there, but she would be obliged to obey them while she was there.

 

I don't see why it shouldn't work both ways.

 

An interesting Telegraph article here written by a British woman living as an ex pat in Saudi Arabia;

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/3618333/My-life-inside-the-Saudi-kingdom.html

[Plain Talker]

so

 

The original French argument was that they are a secular country and because they don't allow Christian children to wear Christian paraphernalia in schools, they should forbid Muslim children to wear the robes and accoutrements of their religion/culture in schools. That has now expanded to limit the wearing of burkhas in public ... a bit of a leap, perhaps.

 

Does that mean that Priests in France will no longer be allowed to walk around wearing a soutâne? Are Nuns no longer allowed to wear their habits? If the Pope should visit France, will he be required to wear a suit (or a pair of jeans)? - France is, after all, a secular country.

 

The French (and others) might cite 'security reasons' to prohibit the burkha and they might talk about being a secular country, but there could be another reason (which isn't anti-Muslim.)

(some snippage.

 

If it was not specifically designed to be anti-Islam, then why does the "no-religious garments" edict only extend to the Burqa? Why are the priests and nuns robes not affected? Sikhs' Turbans?

[ricgem2002]

An interesting Telegraph article here written by a British woman living as an ex pat in Saudi Arabia;

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/3618333/My-life-inside-the-Saudi-kingdom.html

interesting reading bf so whats your thoughts on the article ?

[L00b]

They accept - and indeed welcome - immigrants, but they expect the immigrants to blend in with their own culture; they are unwilling to change their culture to suit the immigrants.

 

I suspect that might apply to the French. They are proud of their culture (perhaps rightly so), they have a large immigrant population - particularly a large Muslim immigrant population and they are genuinely concerned that, although they're not going to be a minority anytime soon, their culture will become diluted. They are perhaps also concerned that certain groups might set up a 'society within a society' rather than integrate into French society.

Spot on.

 

France has welcomed, sometimes warmly, often times not, muslim immigrants in numbers for well over a century, particularly as it had colonised most of the (Muslim) Maghreb since well before that. That's for context, essentially to explain that there has been a very large muslim community, part of it settled, part of it 'passing economically', for a very, very long time indeed.

 

I certainly never saw any Burqa around when I was a kid in the early 70s, and still not right through to the 90s anywhere...except perhaps when visiting Paris and glancing Saudi wives shopping around. I still don't see many at all in town whenever I visit family, but I have noticed an apparent increase in them year-on-year in the Borny district of my town, which is predominantly an immigrant landing ground (has been for over 30 years), over the past 4 years or so. So, there seems to be some further ghettoisation ongoing. Which is regrettable, as that district was enough of a ghetto to begin with (my Mum was a senior social worker, and used to look after all families in that district, secure benefits for them and organise grants/activities/whatnot for over 20 years).

 

I can fully relate to, and validate, Rupert_Baehr's point about this issue being more related to social order policies than anything else.

If it was not specifically designed to be anti-Islam, then why does the "no-religious garments" edict only extend to the Burqa? Why are the priests and nuns robes not affected? Sikhs' Turbans?

Because it does not marginalise them, to the extent a burqa is perceived to? Edited January 22, 2010 by L00b