Women who wear burkhas in public in France will be fined

[tab1]

tab1 (who used to be almost rabidly and insultingly anti everything Western and has changed out of all recognition lately) and hard2miss (who since s/he arrived has proved a great debater and willing to change stance when faced with good reasons) I've realised that once I divest myself of my 'but it's just so gender biased and unfair' knee jerk reaction, I actually agree with the 'leave it alone for now' gang.

 

I have to disagree there Madam and although I can understand your negative perception of me, maybe based on my arguments against wind up merchants like TheRat under his many guises and Firecracker and such apparent racists. I have never been anti Western but almost certainly been anti racists. In many occasions we found ourselves on opposite sides of the argument and of course then the friend of the enemy is perceived as the enemy:D I have always sought to not blindly defend Islam but try and explain my understanding of Islam. I am willing to be corrected but I don't think you'll find any anti Western post in my post history. Edited January 28, 2010 by tab1

[tab1]

It all goes on how you approach it. If the politicians debated it properly and looked at why it would actually be benifitial to ban it and do it in the right manor that is not preduditial, then I think it could be done sencibly.

I dont share the views of the 'its dangerous to drive in' lot because they are unfounded seeming stupid arguments against it, that are just made up for the sake of argument.

 

I have looked at this and thought long and hard and looked at why not seeing the face is so important and have posted what I think in another topic about 'Burkas on planes' which is a real instance where people feel uneasy concerning the Burka.

 

To me this 'cultural issue' has nothing to do with Islam or Muslims, but I feel strongly that this is a form of oppression and segrigation and that for the greater good of our sociaty should not be here and become part of 'our' culture.

Given the origins of it and that its not a religious garment I think that we have every right to discus and decide if we should accept it here without fear of the stigma of racism or Islamiphobia, and that both of tho's argument are wrong altho not unsustanciated as some people do not make the distinctions with the Burka as I do and they do use the call for banning it to fit in with their Racist and Islamaphobic agendas.

We should not ban it tho just because France has ect but we should look at their reasoning and take that also into account. I think personaly that this will all become irrelivant as I can see in the future this being taken out of Govermental control and a blanket ban on Europe be introduced by people who do not fear the electorate.

Indeed I have to respect your reasoning hard2miss that you have obviously given it some thought, but you must realise then how easy it is for anyone on the defensive to perceive your objections to the burqa as being the same as those with a racist agenda.

 

Many a thread has been closed because of peope simply out to cause trouble, like the one you warned recently to behave and not get the thread closed. So it's quite refreshing to have a civilised discussion on traditionally a touchy subject on SF. The credit does indeed go to you and your willingness to engage and take on board other's views also rather than simply oppose it for the sake of point scoring.

[hard2miss]

Indeed I have to respect your reasoning hard2miss that you have obviously given it some thought, but you must realise then how easy it is for anyone on the defensive to perceive your objections to the burqa as being the same as those with a racist agenda.

 

Many a thread has been closed because of peope simply out to cause trouble, like the one you warned recently to behave and not get the thread closed. So it's quite refreshing to have a civilised discussion on traditionally a touchy subject on SF. The credit does indeed go to you and your willingness to engage and take on board other's views also rather than simply oppose it for the sake of point scoring.

Thank you, and I like how you grey out the irrelivant parts of the quote while still leaving it all in context when you Bolden the parts you wish to discuss. I just thought I would say that while the compliments are going around

 

Back to the post tho, ofcourse I understand that people jump on board and post dribble on subject without little thought of who'm it may hurt and with just the desire to look the part with on the fly remarks, they do need the spotlight on them and weeding out, but its easy to get hung up on the trash postings and not actualy descuss (I need my google spell check ) anything in any depth and then people are either on the defencive or on the offensive and no thought goes into anything then other than one line insuilts.

 

A topic that has gone on this long is either left with one group or the other, either its full of annomosity or the numpties have had enough and left it to serious debate. This looks like its quite sencible now altho it will be prone to the odd one or two that will pop in and churp in some rubarb without having read anything before hand.

 

I think tho as we have all put our cards on the table and couldnt change anything anyhow we maybe should sit back on the Burka, especialy on this particular topic, and see what the future holds for it ?

[Ridgewalk]

I think the French govt. have altered their stance to a ban in public buildings, hospitals and educational establishments. Personally I think that the Burkah should be banned. I appreciate all the arguments about an individuals right to choose and we quite often see articulate middle class Burkha wearing women on tv arguing their case, however what choice does some poorly educated lass with no voice outside her bullying father and brothers in Batley or Dewsbury have. Surely it's a case of the lesser evil. A blanket (sic) ban would protect the vulnerable. Sarkozy's comment about there being no place for such a dehumanising garment in France should be applauded. The seperation of religion from state institutions in France is witnessing the slow death of Christianity in that country. Sarkozy recently opened up a debate in France on the nature of identity.

[Halibut]

I think the French govt. have altered their stance to a ban in public buildings, hospitals and educational establishments. Personally I think that the Burkah should be banned. I appreciate all the arguments about an individuals right to choose and we quite often see articulate middle class Burkha wearing women on tv arguing their case, however what choice does some poorly educated lass with no voice outside her bullying father and brothers in Batley or Dewsbury have. Surely it's a case of the lesser evil. A blanket (sic) ban would protect the vulnerable. Sarkozy's comment about there being no place for such a dehumanising garment in France should be applauded. The seperation of religion from state institutions in France is witnessing the slow death of Christianity in that country. Sarkozy recently opened up a debate in France on the nature of identity.

 

If your hypothetical poorly educated lass from Dewsbury or wherever has hardline menfolk bullying her to wear the burqa is told she's not allowed to wear it publicly, how is that going to help her?

A blanket ban would not protect the vulnerable; the most vulnerable are those who can't or won't speak for themselves, those whose choice to wear the burqa might not be freely made.

[Plain Talker]

I think the French govt. have altered their stance to a ban in public buildings, hospitals and educational establishments. Personally I think that the Burkah should be banned. I appreciate all the arguments about an individuals right to choose and we quite often see articulate middle class Burkha wearing women on tv arguing their case, however what choice does some poorly educated lass with no voice outside her bullying father and brothers in Batley or Dewsbury have. Surely it's a case of the lesser evil. A blanket (sic) ban would protect the vulnerable. Sarkozy's comment about there being no place for such a dehumanising garment in France should be applauded. The seperation of religion from state institutions in France is witnessing the slow death of Christianity in that country. Sarkozy recently opened up a debate in France on the nature of identity.

 

What about the dehumanising of the women who would then no longer have the choice whether or not to wear it?

 

You are being far too simplistic in your view.

 

The minority of women who are forced to wear it, at least have the opportunity to go out whilst wearing it.

 

If that is taken from them, how will they ever manage to break their bonds?

 

By banning it, you are not going to change the mind of a tyrant, all you are going to do is be complicit in supporting him being tyrannical toward his wife or daughters. And force them to remain hidden indoors.

 

The decision of the cheese-eating surrender-monkeys to ban is not in any way a philanthropic move, nor is it altruistic. It's Islam- and Muslim-hating, even in its mildest interpretation.

 

If the woman is unable to work, and gets the proposed fine... erm.. how is she going to pay it? (Her husband/ father probably won't cough up, if he's such a tyrant as to enforce the burqa on her) Will she be imprisoned further (only in a state-sponsored gaol this time) if she refuses/is not permitted to comply?

 

There will be a knee-jerk, defiant reaction from those who object

[Flowersfade]

Daily mail what a load of drivel

No it should not be banned its not harming anyone frankly i find chavs offensive and their attire

[hard2miss]

If the woman is unable to work, and gets the proposed fine... erm.. how is she going to pay it? (Her husband/ father probably won't cough up, if he's such a tyrant as to enforce the burqa on her) Will she be imprisoned further (only in a state-sponsored gaol this time) if she refuses/is not permitted to comply?

Or freed would be another interpretation.

[L00b]

The decision of the cheese-eating surrender-monkeys to ban is not in any way a philanthropic move, nor is it altruistic. It's Islam- and Muslim-hating, even in its mildest interpretation.

The burqa is perceived as a security risk in public venues, to the same extent as a motorcycle helmet and other identity-concealing garments. The government is taking a measure, which it deems in the best interest of the public (all of the surrender-monkeys, including the couscous-eating ones)

 

There is no "Islam- and Muslim-hating", it would be quite rich coming from a country which historically has many more ties to, and interests in, Muslim countries than the UK, and wherein the Muslim community is much more active and better represented than in the UK

 

To be fair, were the moderate muslim community co-operating more thoroughly for suppressing the terrorist threat in France and the UK (I believe, but am of course open to correction, that they are best-placed for on-the-ground intelligence), then I doubt the ban would have been considered to the extent that it has.

 

"Damned if you do and damned if you don't", springs to mind somehow.

 

Flame on

Edited February 2, 2010 by L00b

[Plain Talker]

Or freed would be another interpretation.

 

How is exchanging one thing that can be used as a form of imprisonment, for another form of imprisonment be considered being freed?

 

"Oh , I was released from Pentonville Prison... oh yeah?"

 

Yeah, they gave me my freedom.. I'm allowed to be in a cell in Parkhurst, now...!"

 

Deary me