Holocaust Memorial Day today 27th Jan

[depoix]

as i tried to explain last night to plek ,if anyone goes to the rememberance day parade on november the eleventh they will see that a wreath is always laid from the british jewish association ,we remember all who died in the wars on that day without any predjudice to religion or country

the traditional small white cross that members of the public lay down now has a new version it has the star of david stamped on it ,so yes ,we do remember them

[Wildcat]

I'm going to have to call you on this.

 

Your language about Jewish holocaust victims gives the game away. You are using justifiable concerns about Israel's behaviour in the Middle East as a cover for your anti-Semitism.

 

As has been pointed out to you many times, the state of Israel was not even in existence during WWII and since when has the Holocaust been used as an excuse for what they do to the Palestinians?

 

The last time I looked, the State of Israel was using the Old Testament to justify their policy in the region, not the Holocaust.

 

John X

 

To be fair hard2miss will be able to find some examples of where Israel has played the holocaust victim card.... in some cases it has to be said with justification when you consider the circulation of the protocols of zion amongst some palestinians for example.

 

The counter to what hard2miss complains of however, does not involve hiding the holocaust in class rooms. It involves a recognition of what it was as symbol of the vileness possible between human beings as a consequence of dehumanising propoganda and remembering what happened and pledging not to let it happen again.

[plekhanov]

do you have issues with constantly wanting attention, no one has to provide any posts to settle your mind they are already on here for all to see

Which posts specifically though? You keep on making these allegations and keep on abjectly failing to substantiate them.

 

• Which post specifically are you claiming I 'slagged off' French Resistance fighters? - Direct quote and link please.
  
• Which posts specifically are you claiming I backtracked upon anything in? - Direct quotes and links please.
  
• Which post specifically are you claiming I dishonestly edited? - Direct quote and link please.

We all know you will not be able to produce any quotes or links to substaniate your allegations as they are false allegations from a lying liar who is lying.

 

and if as i said earlier you had ever attended a memorial service then you would know what i mean

I've attended plenty, in my youth I even carried the Union flag at several of them, I still fail to see what relevance this is supposed to have to any of your lies about me.

 

you really dont like being proven wrong do you?

Not particularly, thats not a problem for me in this thread though as you have been conspicuously unable to prove me wrong on anything hence your flury of false allegations and red herrings.

 

tell you what ...instead of hyjacking and ruining a decent thread with your moaning and backpeddling take it to pm and let those of us with something decent to say carry on with it ,hows that ? you can stamp your feet as much as you like, throw tantrums as well ,im a good listener ,so what do you say button up and leave the thread to those who are intrested in it and go to pm or keep coming back ,moaning like a spoilt brat thats been caught out and wont admit it ,or is it your intention to get the thread closed so no one can see your distastefull remarks about the resistance ?

Yes clearly I'm trying to hide my remarks by repeating and expanding upon them

 

Once again I stand completely by everything I've said in this thread, can you say the same? Do you still claim that De Gaulle for example didn't fight the Germans and is regarded as a laughing stock by the French who hate him?

[plekhanov]

Marx never wrote these words. I notice you did not cite the source of this quotation. It is true that citations for this quotation have been given before (cf. to Marx's journalistic writings in the 1850s), but when these sources have been investigated they have been proven to be false. Both Marx and Engels were undoubtedly what we would call racists (as were most Western intellectuals of their era), but there is no evidence that Marx is the author of the quotation you use, and certainly no evidence that either of them used the word 'holocaust'.

I don't quite understand what the point of trying to falsely tie Marx to the Nazi-holocaust is supposed to be.

 

It's hardly as if clear advocates of Marxism aren't responsible for other greater examples of mass killing so there's no need to do so to try and discredit Marxism in that regard. Plus there's so much rock solid evidence of Hitler's implacable opposition to Marxism that it's ludicrous to try and pretend that the Nazis were Marxists.

[John X]

Why dont you go and jump in the Don you dipstick

 

Are you still here?

 

John X

[callippo]

I have to admit I haven't read through all of this thread, just the first page.

 

but it's the usual sort of stuff. The Soviet Union lost far more in WW2, even though the Russian Jews murdered in the Holocaust are counted twice etc etc. Poland had a bad time, but their Jews are also counted twice. Other genocides have taken place in world history, and so on.

 

the simple fact is that 3 out of every 4 Jews in Nazi occupied Europe disappeared in the first and so far mercifully only example of a highly developed nation embarking on a campaign of genocide involving selection on the basis of race. If you don't think that's worth some sort of remembrance then there's something wrong with you.

 

in Israel Yom HaShoah can take place on nearly every day in April and May, subject to the lunar Jewish calendar. At 10am sirens blare, all the traffic stops in the streets, and everyone stands to attention. 11am, November 11, Remembrance day, used to be like that in the UK, before people stopped observing it the same way they did previously.

[depoix]

Which posts specifically though? You keep on making these allegations and keep on abjectly failing to substantiate them.

 

• Which post specifically are you claiming I 'slagged off' French Resistance fighters? - Direct quote and link please.
  
• Which posts specifically are you claiming I backtracked upon anything in? - Direct quotes and links please.
  
• Which post specifically are you claiming I dishonestly edited? - Direct quote and link please.

We all know you will not be able to produce any quotes or links to substaniate your allegations as they are false allegations from a lying liar who is lying.

 

 

I've attended plenty, in my youth I even carried the Union flag at several of them, I still fail to see what relevance this is supposed to have to any of your lies about me.

 

 

Not particularly, thats not a problem for me in this thread though as you have been conspicuously unable to prove me wrong on anything hence your flury of false allegations and red herrings.

 

 

Yes clearly I'm trying to hide my remarks by repeating and expanding upon them

 

Once again I stand completely by everything I've said in this thread, can you say the same? Do you still claim that De Gaulle for example didn't fight the Germans and is regarded as a laughing stock by the French who hate him?

your still here stamping your feet and being bloody minded i see despite my request to leave the thread to those who want to make a real contribution , go to pm as i requested last night and as for links you have google ...use it instead of trolling on here ,you were wrong and thats all i have to say on the matter

[LordChaverly]

In my view it is perfectly legitimate to examine the uses to which Holocaust Memorial Day (and indeed the Holocaust itself) is now put. Now if it is used as a sobering and salutary lesson in the dangers of extreme ethnic intolerance and chauvinism, all well and good - indeed, very good. It is true that the focus of this day has been widened somewhat to include other recent genocides, such as occurred in Rwanda. However, we should remember that this ‘widening’ was done in spite of the most prominent ‘Holocaust Memorial’ activists rather than because of them, Indeed, most of the most prominent figures associated with keeping the memory of the Holocaust alive (through for example creating special museums or memorial days) have been purveyors of the ‘uniqueness doctrine’, i.e. the idea that the genocide against the Jews in WW2 was unique and therefore should not be compared to any other genocide. Thus Eli Weisel, probably the most well known of these has been frequently criticized for seeking to prevent discussion other genocides (e.g. against the Armenians in WW1 or the Roma in WW2).

 

Moreover, as Norman Finkelstein has said in numerous articles, it is now also being used for other purposes which are far less noble, not least of which relate to support for Israel in the Israel-Palestine question, i.e. to give to Israel an unassailable high moral ground. Thus the chairman of the Holocaust Educational Trust in the UK is none other than the ardent Zionist Greville Janner, who has been tireless in his defence of Israel but as intolerant as it is possible to be on the issue of Palestinian rights. The same of course has been true of Weisel and also of Martin Gilbert (he of the current Iraq inquiry). Whatever lessons the Holocaust has to offer in relation to the dangers of ethnic intolerance, Janner, Weisel, Gilbert and other Zionists appear to have a blind spot which prevents them from relating these lessons to, for example, the state-sponsored mass expulsion of Palestinians from their homes in 1948.. Thus many Zionists are 'expulsions deniers'. As Ilan Pappe has demonstrated in his book 'The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine', far from being an unintended side-effect of war, the expulsion of the Palestinians was a deliberate policy of the Zionist state. Moreover, this policy was implemented by brutal means, including massacres, in order to terrorise the indigenous population into leaving their homes, to which they were not allowed to return. There is no other appropriate word for it, in modern terminology, other than 'ethnic cleansing' – and this was happening almost immediately after the genocide and ethnic cleansing in Europe. So much for the lessons of history.

[Kidorry]

There is an element of truth to that in that the British role of coordinating groups was important, but the greater part of what you have said is a rather insulting patriotic fantasy.

 

The french resistance was organised by right thinking people from across the french political spectrum including many Communists. It also involved in the south large numbers of Spanish republicans that had fled Franco. The most notable contribution to the french resistance came perhaps unsurprisingly from Jews that made up around 15% of their numbers. As for risks the Maquis faced summary death when they were caught, and the french civilian population faced retributary slaughter for their actions. To say the BCRA took most of the risks, is quite simply rubbish.

The British agents faced summary death if they were found, and what makes 15% of jews in the resistance so special. You talk as though the war had nothing to do with them.As for my statement being rubbish I don`t think your is without bias.

[plekhanov]

I have to admit I haven't read through all of this thread, just the first page.

 

but it's the usual sort of stuff. The Soviet Union lost far more in WW2, even though the Russian Jews murdered in the Holocaust are counted twice etc etc. Poland had a bad time, but their Jews are also counted twice. Other genocides have taken place in world history, and so on.

 

the simple fact is that 3 out of every 4 Jews in Nazi occupied Europe disappeared in the first and so far mercifully only example of a highly developed nation embarking on a campaign of genocide involving selection on the basis of race. If you don't think that's worth some sort of remembrance then there's something wrong with you.

 

in Israel Yom HaShoah can take place on nearly every day in April and May, subject to the lunar Jewish calendar. At 10am sirens blare, all the traffic stops in the streets, and everyone stands to attention. 11am, November 11, Remembrance day, used to be like that in the UK, before people stopped observing it the same way they did previously.

What do you mean that Polish and Russian Jews are "counted twice"? Are you saying that because they're Jewish they weren't Russian or Polish and that no matter if they considered themselves Polish, Russian... they weren't? As that sure sounds like what you're saying which is just bizarre considering that is exactly the kind of thinking I was under the impression Holocaust Memorial Day was supposed to warn against.

 

It's also an ridiculous strawman to say the Nazi-holocaust "worth some sort of remembrance" as if people are saying it shouldn't be remembered when in reality they're saying other genocides and other victims of the Nazi-holocaust should be remembered as well. As well not instead of there's a rather significant difference.