Is god moral? Interesting biblical question.

[Wildcat]

Seeking to 'avoid' Euthyphro is a tacit admission that the dilemma successfully undermines the concept of a morally good god. To avoid euthyphro is to concede the argument.

 

I was using avoid as in answer the dilemma. In the sense I meant it, it does not mean conceding the argument.

[EbonyBranch]

Anyway, back to the OP's question, which I was thinking about last night. Apart from (possibly) the act of creating everything in the opening chapter, I can't think of a single altruistic act by god.

 

 

The act of creation must necessarily have entailed a moral choice, but to argue that it was morally good you would have to demonstrate that:

A. it wasn't mainly (if not wholly) self-serving, and

B. it was based on an assessment of benefits vs. harms that favoured the benefits

 

The Christian concept of a god is an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent, etc. creator. The problem of evil (and the internal incoherencies of the 'omni's) fatally undermines that concept, so at best you're left with a very powerful, but not all powerful or all-knowing or even all-good, being who set the universe in motion and hoped for the best.

[Wildcat]

No you are flagrantly misrepresenting "conventional Christian belief" as being something it absolutely is not.

 

You didn't say 'not all Christians believe people are tortured for all eternity by god' you attempted to create the impression that amongst Xians a belief in hell was unconventional which is the exact opposite of the truth.

 

I prefaced what I said with "in my experience", now unless you are telling me I don't know or am being misleading about my own experience what I said wasn't actually incorrect.

[EbonyBranch]

If god existed i think he would be like an ISP.

 

He has no control over what goes on within his creation, except he used to once, and the fact that he used to once has caused him problems ever since because now people say that it is entirely possible for him to control what goes on, but chooses not to.

 

For "net neutrality" read "creation neutrality"

 

What's his stance on file-sharing?

[Wildcat]

The act of creation must necessarily have entailed a moral choice, but to argue that it was morally good you would have to demonstrate that:

A. it wasn't mainly (if not wholly) self-serving, and

B. it was based on an assessment of benefits vs. harms that favoured the benefits

 

The Christian concept of a god is an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent, etc. creator. The problem of evil (and the internal incoherencies of the 'omni's) fatally undermines that concept, so at best you're left with a very powerful, but not all powerful or all-knowing or even all-good, being who set the universe in motion and hoped for the best.

 

The act of creation doesn't need to involve a moral choice.

 

You are assuming morality to be consequentialist, not everyone does.

[plekhanov]

It's been a while since we had a really interesting religion thread, so here is a question I saw posed online:

 

is there an example in the bible of the biblical god doing a morally good act, not counting the times 'he' acts to correct (or mitigate the effects of) 'his' previous acts?

 

To give an example of a morally good act: during the January snow I was walking home through Attercliffe and a muslim man stopped his car to offer me a lift. I was suspicious, but being fairly husky and seeing no obvious threat, I hopped in the car. He dropped me home, didn't ask for money; said he'd seen me stomping through the snow and thought I might appreciate a good turn. I mention that he was a Muslim because I used to be a skinhead and I still look like one. He had nothing to gain by helping me, but decided that helping me was more important to him than driving past in comfort.

 

 

In very simple terms: a moral act is one where there is not necessarily any benefit to the person doing it, but harm or discomfort is lessened for others.

The religion 101 exam on Ebon's Musings has some questions which neatly highlight the absurdity of claiming any all powerful super being watching over the earth is also all loving and moral.

 

3. You are a product tester and frequently bring your work home. Yesterday, while dressed in a flame-resistant suit (up to 3,000 degrees) and carrying the latest model fire extinguisher, you discovered your neighbor's house on fire. As the flames quickly spread, you stood by and watched the family perish. Which of the following best describes your behavior?

 

1. All-powerful
   
2. All-knowing
   
3. All-loving
   
4. Mysterious
   

You are the Creator of the universe. Your chosen people are a tribe of nomadic herdsmen, presently in bondage on one of the millions of your planets. Their ruler is being quite obstinate. Keeping in mind that you possess not only infinite power but also infinite love, your best course of action would be to:

 

1. Cause the ruler to drop dead of a heart attack
   
2. Cause the ruler to fall off a cliff
   
3. Visit the ruler in a dream and persuade him to let your people go
   
4. Slaughter a great number of innocent babies who had nothing to do with the ruler's policies

You are a Starfleet Federation explorer in the process of cataloging two newly discovered planets. The majority of the inhabitants of each planet believe in a deity, but they are two different deities. Deity "X" is said to be not only all-powerful, all-loving, and all-knowing, but the designer of a marvelously complex and ordered world. Deity "Y" is said to be indifferent, absent, unconcerned with the affairs of his planet, and some even say evil. Which god rules over which planet?

 

Planet A: Has apparently achieved a state of advanced benign equilibrium in which there are no viruses or diseases, and only a very small number of natural disasters, which, when they do strike, always eliminate only the sinful and evil. The inhabitants, both plant and animal, have learned to maintain their existence through photosynthesis, and thus do not have to kill and eat each other in order to survive. There are no "birth defects"; every inhabitant comes into existence perfectly formed and equipped for a long and productive life.

 

Deity X_____

Deity Y_____

 

Planet B: Adorned with many examples of beauty and order, it is also constantly beset by hurricanes, earthquakes, tsunamis, floods, volcanoes, lightning bolts, viruses, disfiguring diseases, parasites, leeches, flies, crop-destroying pests and many other phenomena which afflict both the innocent and the evil. Every life form on the planet can only sustain its existence through the destruction and consumption of other life forms. Some of the inhabitants are born with a crippling condition called a "birth defect" which condemns them to living extremely limited, short or painful lives.

 

Deity X_____

Deity Y_____

 

With the powers most monotheists claim for theirs the ability of god to do good would be immense. For example they could have life on earth operate via something other than natural selection (I can't think of how this could work but I don't claim to be all knowing and all powerful), that would at a stroke end most of the suffering in the world. Yet any god/s out there clearly haven't ended natural selection which would suggest me atleast that if they exist they must either love or be utterly indifferent lesser beings suffering.

[EbonyBranch]

I prefaced what I said with "in my experience", now unless you are telling me I don't know or am being misleading about my own experience what I said wasn't actually incorrect.

 

Well, now that plek has, effectively, broadened your 'experience' of what the majority of Christians believe about hell you'll be able to modify your assertions about the place of torture in Christianity appropriately. Or are the majority of the believers wrong? Liberal Christianity is no more than a small subset of the faith.

[EbonyBranch]

The act of creation doesn't need to involve a moral choice.

 

You are assuming morality to be consequentialist, not everyone does.

 

The standard apologetic for the morality of god is a twisted, incoherent, post hoc mess of consequentialism, deontology and virtue ethics. For example: there is no gratuitous evil because god knows the ultimate outcome of every evil act will be a perfect world, plus god is inherently a virtuous agent incapable of immorality or evil and all god's actions are good.

 

It doesn't work beyond the superficial level. At best it just sounds convincingly profound enough to keep the 'rubes' from faltering.

[plekhanov]

Anyway, back to the OP's question, which I was thinking about last night. Apart from (possibly) the act of creating everything in the opening chapter, I can't think of a single altruistic act by god.

 

The obsession the god of the bible has with his creations:

 

• doing everything he tells them
  
• worshipping and living him above all else

Would suggest he the creation was anything but altruistic, going off the bible we seem to have been created to massage his ego.

 

Just look at how much suffering the working of creation produces, if you were to sit down and try to design a system to maximise suffering you could hardly do better than an ecosystem operating through natural selection. As such it's hard to see how a truly altruistic god could have created a universe in which life would arise in such a manner.

[danot]

JUST A THOUGHT!!

 

Asuming that there is a god, would'nt his/her motives and sudsequent actions ultimately be to serve the "greater good"?.. if so, the ethics and moral values that define good and bad in the literal sense would'nt apply.