Is Israel a rogue state?

[Harvest Moon]

No they wouldn't.

 

That would be a disproportionate response.. Oh, and most of the scud missiles were downed by the (US supplied) "patriot" missiles.

How naive can some people be, so saddam sets the rules because he's an arab/muslim, he dictated how he would carry out an unprovoked attack Israel and how Israel were allowed to respond. Don't you think that saddams vile attacks were disproportionate considering that Israel hadn't fired any Missiles?

Another client for 'Never Never Land'

[Harvest Moon]

That's a load of rubbish and the type of dangerous thinking that the Israelis are guilty of and needs condemnation from every quarter.

 

'The kids throw stones so we will fire bullets' is not a million miles away from 'They use scuds so we will use nukes'

 

There is no justification EVER to use nukes. not even if your Jewish and you have are paranoia that the world is out to get you.

What a pathetic and arab biased response, so it was alright for saddam to launch missiles in an uprovoked attack on Israel, in fact according to your warped way of thinking arabs can do what they want but israel must remain 'Peter perfect'.

The mind boggles.

[WiLd_TiGeR]

WHY ORTHODOX JEWS ARE OPPOSED TO A ZIONIST STATE

 

First some introductions:

 

1) What is "The People of Israel" ?

 

*

The People of Israel have existed for thousands of years.

*

They have their own particular, essential nature.

*

The Torah is the source of their essential nature.

*

Without Torah and Faith there is no People of Israel.

*

Whoever denies the Torah and the Faith is no longer part of the People of Israel.

*

The purpose of the People of Israel in this world is Divine Service.

*

Their salvation is occupation in Divine Service.

 

2) What is Zionism?

 

*

Zionism is a relatively new thing.

*

It has only existed for a century.

*

Zionism redefines the true essential nature of the People of Israel, and substitutes for it a completely contradictory and opposite character - a materialistic worldly nation.

*

Their misfortune is lack of what other nations possess, i.e. a state and army.

*

Their salvation is possession of a state and army etc.

*

This is clearly spelled out in the circles of Zionist thought, and among the leaders of the Zionist State, that through changing the nature and character of the People of Israel and by changing their way of thinking they can set before the People of Israel "their salvation" -- a state and an army.

 

The People of Israel oppose the so-called "State of Israel" for four reasons:

 

FIRST -- The so-called "State of Israel" is diametrically opposed and completely contradictory to the true essence and foundation of the People of Israel, as is explained above. The only time that the People of Israel were permitted to have a state was two thousand years ago when the glory of the creator was upon us, and likewise in the future when the glory of the creator will once more be revealed, and the whole world will serve Him, then He Himself (without any human effort or force of arms) will grant us a kingdom founded on Divine Service. However, a worldly state, like those possessed by other peoples, is contradictory to the true essence of the People of Israel. Whoever calls this the salvation of Israel shows that he denies the essence of the People of Israel, and substitutes another nature, a worldly materialistic nature, and therefore sets before them, a worldly materialistic "salvation," and the means of achieving this "salvation" is also worldly and materialistic i.e. to organize a land and army. However, the true salvation of the People of Israel is to draw close to the Creator. This is not done by organization and force of arms. Rather it is done by occupation to Torah and good deeds.

 

SECOND -- Because of all of this and other reasons the Torah forbids us to end the exile and establish a state and army until the Holy One, blessed He, in His Glory and Essence will redeem us. This is forbidden even if the state is conducted according to the law of the Torah because arising from the exile itself is forbidden, and we are required to remain under the rule of the nations of the world, as is explained in the book VAYOEL MOSHE. If we transgress this injunction, He will bring upon us (may we be spared) terrible punishment.

 

THIRD -- Aside from arising from exile, all the deeds of the Zionists are diametrically opposed to the Faith and the Torah. Because the foundation of the Faith and Torah of Israel is that the Torah was revealed from heaven, and there is reward for those who obey it and punishment for those who transgress it. The entire People of Israel is required to obey the Torah, and whoever doesn't want to, ceases to be part of the congregation of Israel.

 

FOURTH -- Aside from the fact that they themselves do not obey the Torah they do everything they can to prevent anyone they get under their power from fulfilling the commands of the Torah, the claims to freedom of religion are lies. They fight with all of their strength to destroy the Faith of Israel.

 

The Zionists claim that they are the saviors of Israel, but this is refuted by twelve things:

 

FIRST -- If one contemplates the two thousand years of our exile, take any hundred years even the hardest, one will not find as much suffering, bloodshed, and catastrophes for the People of Israel in the period of the Zionists, and it is known that most of the suffering of this century was caused by the Zionists, as our Rabbis warned us would be the case.

 

SECOND -- It is openly stated in books written by the founders of Zionism that the means by which they planned to establish a state was by instigating anti-Semitism, and undermining the security of the Jews in all the lands of the world, until they would be forced to flee to their state. And thus they did - They intentionally infuriated the German people and fanned the flames of Nazi hatred, and they helped the Nazis, with trickery and deceit, to take whole Jewish communities off to the concentration camps, and the Zionists themselves admit this. (See the books Perfidy, Min Hameitzor, etc.). The Zionists continue to practice this strategy today. They incite anti-Semitism and then they present themselves as the "saviors". Here are two replies given by Leaders of the Zionists during World War II, when they were asked for money to help ransom Jews from the Nazis. Greenbaum said "One cow in Palestine is worth more than all the Jews in Poland." (G-d forbid).

Weitzman said, "The most important part of the Jewish people is already in the land (of Israel) and those who are left, are unimportant" (May we be spared).

 

THIRD -- We see that most of world Jewry lives in security and under good physical conditions, and have no desire to go live in the Zionist State. Whereas many people have left the Zionist State to live under better conditions in other lands.

 

FOURTH -- The Zionists make a great deal of propaganda to induce people to immigrate to their state. If their state is so beneficial why do they have to make so much propaganda.

 

FIFTH -- Because nobody wants the Zionists to "save" them. The only way they can get immigrants is by promising poor people material benefits, and even then very few people respond.

 

SIXTH -- The Zionist State is always threatened by the dangers of war. Whereas the rest of world Jewry live in peace and security, (Except in a few places where the Zionists have undermined their security and fanned the flames of hatred)

 

SEVENTH -- The Zionist State could not continue to exist without economic support from Jews living outside of the Zionist State.

 

EIGHTH -- The Zionist State is on the verge of economic collapse, and their money is nearly worthless.

 

NINTH -- The Zionist State persecute all Jews who are loyal to their Faith.

 

TENTH -- They start wars that endanger the Jewish People, for the sake of their own political interests.

 

ELEVENTH - According to the Torah the path of safety is following ways of peace not starting fights with other nations, as the Zionists do.

 

TWELFTH -- Even if the Zionists could and would provide physical security it would be at the expense of our Faith and Our Torah the true People of Israel prefer death rather than life at such a cost.

 

It is therefore clear that Zionism is not the savior of the people of Israel. Rather it is their greatest misfortune.

 

Even though there are some observant Jews and rabbis, who approve of the Zionists, this is not the opinion of the Torah.

 

The Zionists have enough control over the American news media to make sure that only their side of the story is heard.

 

They make it look like all Jewry and their rabbis are Zionists, but this is false propaganda.

 

The most important Rabbis and the majority of religious Jewry are opposed to Zionism, but their voice is not heard because of Zionist control of American news media.

 

The Zionists terrorize everyone who speaks out against them.

 

That part of the Jewish masses which is fooled by Zionist propaganda puts pressure on their Rabbis not to speak out.

 

Between the terror and the pressure of the masses most of the Rabbis are prevented from speaking out.

 

We bring three testimonies of the true opinion of the Torah.

 

1) In the past two thousand years of the dangers and sufferings of exile not once did any of the Sages of Israel suggest that we make a state to protect ourselves. In every generation we had thousands of Sages well versed in the Torah.

 

2) We have thousands of legal work of Torah law that have been handed down to us by the Sages of all generations. Not once do we see a word suggesting the establishment of a state. What we do find is warnings against it.

 

3) The founders of Zionism were all atheists who denied the Torah. All the Torah Sages of that time opposed them and opposed Zionism, saying that Zionism would lead only to destruction.

 

However the true People of Israel will never change their nature or give up their Faith because of the strength the Creator gives them.

 

Zionism is a foreign growth in the body of the Jewish People. The end will be that it will rid itself of this foreign growth and remain pure.

 

Zionism has overcome the Jewish people by force, fraud and terror, but none of this will help them because the truth will always remain with the help of the Creator.

 

Zionism will not replace the Jewish People. The Jewish People will remain strong in their faith and the Zionist State will cease to exist.

 

It is therefore, our demand that the State that calls itself ISRAEL, should cease to exist. Since this won't be done, we demand that they cease to call themselves "Israel", because their entire being is in complete opposition to the true People of Israel. The true People of Israel deny them permission to call themselves by that name. The Zionist leaders have no right to set themselves up as the representatives and spokesmen of the true People of ISRAEL.

 

Since we know they will not fulfill this demand either we feel that at least we cry out the truth. The truth will always remain the truth. By no means or force can the truth be changed. Even if all the world would say that one and one is three, the truth will remain that one and one is two.

 

Let the truth be declared. The use of the Name "ISRAEL" by that State is a complete falsification. The People of Israel have nothing to do with that State. Zionism and its State have no share and no part in the true ISRAEL.

 

 

http://www.nkusa.org

[Kingmaker2]

What a pathetic and arab biased response, so it was alright for saddam to launch missiles in an uprovoked attack on Israel, in fact according to your warped way of thinking arabs can do what they want but israel must remain 'Peter perfect'.

The mind boggles.

 

No Israel doesn't need to be perfect but it does need to treat the average Palestinian as a bit more than the 3rd class citizens that they currently do.

 

Lifting the siege and stopping the settlement building, and allowing building materials into Gaza might be a start, and also allow the ordinary Palestinian the right to visit hospitals quickly when they get sick or need medical attention.

If the you get sick or have an accident in the UK you can go straight to your A & E department, In the occupied territories the roads are blocked by Israeli check points denying easy access to hospitals.

 

Now how does that sit with you Harvest?

[hard2miss]

What a pathetic and arab biased response, so it was alright for saddam to launch missiles in an uprovoked attack on Israel, in fact according to your warped way of thinking arabs can do what they want but israel must remain 'Peter perfect'.

The mind boggles.

 

 

 

Look what was happening, the US and ourselves were conducting a war in the region. That means that the commitment and organisation was on one front.

Had Israel got involved at any stage it would have brought in Iran, Syria, and who knows who else and that was actually what Sadam was up to has he knew the proverbial had hit the fan.

 

The Americans would have known this and 'Pressured' Israel into sitting back, and rightly so given that if nothing positive has come out of this lie of a war with Iraq, it has to be that there's one less thing for Israel to worry about.

[Harvest Moon]

Look what was happening, the US and ourselves were conducting a war in the region. That means that the commitment and organisation was on one front.

Had Israel got involved at any stage it would have brought in Iran, Syria, and who knows who else and that was actually what Sadam was up to has he knew the proverbial had hit the fan.

 

The Americans would have known this and 'Pressured' Israel into sitting back, and rightly so given that if nothing positive has come out of this lie of a war with Iraq, it has to be that there's one less thing for Israel to worry about.

So no compliment for Israel (GCP) for showing restraint, strange isn't it that the syrians didn't complain when saddam was firing his scuds over their territory.

If you honestly believe that either the pariah states of iran and syria would have joined in then you really are a naive ideologist, this more than anything would have suited Israel by virtue of the fact that the US & UK would then have been with them in sorting out the misled arabs

[Harvest Moon]

Lifting the siege and stopping the settlement building, and allowing building materials into Gaza might be a start,

Strange isn't it that Yasser Arrafat managed to get materials for his company to contract and build a concrete wall for the Israelis (GCP) and pocket £$millions in the process.

[callippo]

ORTHODOX JEWS ARE OPPOSED TO A ZIONIST STATE.

 

how totally clueless is that. Do you really think the tiny rump of Neuteuri Karta, which number no more than about 5,000 aherents worldwide, are representative of millions of Orthodox Jews?

[Harvest Moon]

They did not "show restraint" they were told in no uncertain terms not to retaliate. Israel knew that if it did, it would lose, not gain, support in the west. You can't ignore what your paymasters tell you, especially at a time like that.

Oh and of course you being privvy to the goings on in the issues can assure us that this is fact.

[Mecky]

I hate racism, ethnic cleansing, apartheid, territorial expansionism... it would be great if hating and opposing such crimes in no way made it necessary for me to criticise Israel's conduct, sadly it does.

 

There are other ways of territorial expansionism without apparent violence. For example, you could always invade a country through immigration and human rights, then start demanding your own laws and an independant state in the host nation.