An alternative to not voting or spoiling your ballot in a general election

[plekhanov]

esme why have you still failed to respond to the problems with your recall proposals which I outlined in post 43?

[esme]

my apologies I missed this, thanks for reminding me

 

A major problem with that proposal is that elections cost money, and having a "constituency vote" every time some individual or group with an axe to grind (of which their is an inexhaustible supply) want one will waste a lot of time and money.

 

well it was an idea off the top of my head and I admit I hadn't thought it through completely

 

so rather than a constituency vote which needs organisation and funding how about a constituency petition, which starts anew each week, a variation of the electronic one on the number10 web site, with access points in libraries, town halls and anywhere with a web connection

 

the idea still needs work to get those without access to the internet such as the elderly included, maybe we could add a menu driven phone system to include those with phones, but even then people would be missed, but it's a lot cheaper and with some work could include the entire constituency

 

I agree elections cost money, however MP's pour billions into schemes we have no say in whatsoever, a lot of which go overbudget, overtime and even when completed fail to meet criteria for success, a lot of that money is wasted

 

I would be happy if some of my taxes went towards a system that allowed me to take an MP or even an entire party out of office if they didn't do what a majority of the electorate wanted, if the system I came up with off the top of my head can't be shown to work then I have no problem with an alternative

 

after all in the business sector if you screw up you can be sacked, even if you are the CEO the shareholders can remove you, as an MP the only people who can sack you are the party leaders and then only for offences such as failing to toe the party line

 

we give MP's the power and authority to tell us what to do, I would like the electorate to be able to remove that power and authority

There is nothing in your proposal to stop "frivolous attempts" wasting time, money and distracting elected representatives from doing their job. A quorum requirement would simply stop frivolous attempts succeeding in removing representative.

ok lets try the petition idea then, with the requirement that if a fixed percentage of the constituents have voted in a single week then that is sufficient to remove that MP from office and call an election, if there aren't enough votes cast in any one week then the MP doesn't even need to know and it certainly doesn't need to affect their work, so frivolous attempts would waste the time and money of the people making the attempt

 

The only viable recall system that I can think of would involve petitions being presented by a significant proportion of the electorate concerned at a level significantly above the capacity of any one political party or other group collecting on their own before you have a vote. This would be problematic though as people would have to go on the record as calling for removal which many people might not feel happy doing. You have to make it difficult to put a recall election in place though otherwise the entire political process would be paralysed.

I wish I'd read this bit first, the petition system could be made to work it does need further thought to iron out problems though

 

I believe power2010 are proposing something similar to give the public a voice in parliament where if 5% of the electorate petition on an issue then a referendum is called allowing the electorate to vote on it

 

are referendums legally binding on the government of the day though ?

 

if not there's still no guarantee the government of the day will abide by the referendum

 

again my apologies for not responding earlier

[bgwm]

I just found this blog, great idea, I'm nowhere near Sheffield but would love to take this up in my own constituency. I don't see any major difference between the major parties and think the current system is outdated. Cheers for the inspiration, let me know when you have a party name, Ben.

[Fivetide]

I've seen a number of people posting that they don't see the point in voting as it won't make a difference or they intend to spoil their ballots deliberately as some form of protest

 

these measures will have absolutely no effect

 

...<snip>...

 

Voter apathy seems to have been very much on the political agenda in recent years so to say 'these measures will have absolutely no effect' isn't entirely accurate. Lots of people not voting has provoked you to start a thread discussing the issue.

 

Postal voting, talk of lowering the voting age or online voting, politicians making more of an effort to engage with the disaffected... etc...

 

What's voting done? It perpetuates the myth that we're being given a democratic choice... when the only 'choice' is: would we prefer a kick in the nuts (the Blue Party that puts banks above the people) or a kick in the teeth (the Red Party that puts banks above the people)?

 

OOOH!! We get to VOTE on it!!

 

srsly.

[PC Brigade]

 

your manifesto will be that on election you will immediately call for another general election, stand down as an MP and undertake to stand in any subsequent election until all parties agree to introduce true proportional representation and give constituencies the right to recall and dismiss MP's who are not reflecting the views of the constituency

 

 

Why not just vote for a party that ALREADY has these polcies? - Both of these are already Liberal Democrat policy.

 

Standing as a spolier candidate will achieve nothing - you'll definitely lose your deposit, and probably end up helping the candidates you want rid of.

 

I believe that everyone has a DUTY to vote - it is simply not good enough to say 'I don't like any of them'. If you really can't decide between Labour, Conservative or Lib Dem, then choose one of the other parties.

You may not agree with every policy, but there is likely that at least one of the parties will have values closer to your own than others.

 

(Just don't vote for the nazis in the BNP)

[plekhanov]

my apologies I missed this, thanks for reminding me

 

 

well it was an idea off the top of my head and I admit I hadn't thought it through completely

 

so rather than a constituency vote which needs organisation and funding how about a constituency petition, which starts anew each week, a variation of the electronic one on the number10 web site, with access points in libraries, town halls and anywhere with a web connection

 

the idea still needs work to get those without access to the internet such as the elderly included, maybe we could add a menu driven phone system to include those with phones, but even then people would be missed, but it's a lot cheaper and with some work could include the entire constituency

 

I agree elections cost money, however MP's pour billions into schemes we have no say in whatsoever, a lot of which go overbudget, overtime and even when completed fail to meet criteria for success, a lot of that money is wasted

 

I would be happy if some of my taxes went towards a system that allowed me to take an MP or even an entire party out of office if they didn't do what a majority of the electorate wanted, if the system I came up with off the top of my head can't be shown to work then I have no problem with an alternative

 

after all in the business sector if you screw up you can be sacked, even if you are the CEO the shareholders can remove you, as an MP the only people who can sack you are the party leaders and then only for offences such as failing to toe the party line

This isn't true. Individuals not party representatives are elected to parliament. Party leaders can throw an MP out of their party they cannot 'sack them' if they could MPs wound't be able to switch parties.

 

we give MP's the power and authority to tell us what to do, I would like the electorate to be able to remove that power and authority

They already can, they simply have to wait till the next election.

 

ok lets try the petition idea then, with the requirement that if a fixed percentage of the constituents have voted in a single week then that is sufficient to remove that MP from office and call an election, if there aren't enough votes cast in any one week then the MP doesn't even need to know and it certainly doesn't need to affect their work, so frivolous attempts would waste the time and money of the people making the attempt

 

I wish I'd read this bit first, the petition system could be made to work it does need further thought to iron out problems though

 

I believe power2010 are proposing something similar to give the public a voice in parliament where if 5% of the electorate petition on an issue then a referendum is called allowing the electorate to vote on it

 

are referendums legally binding on the government of the day though ?

 

if not there's still no guarantee the government of the day will abide by the referendum

 

again my apologies for not responding earlier

No problem it's easy to miss posts in busy threads. Anyway I think 5% is far too low. The average constituency is about 70,000 5% of that is only 3,500. It would be all too easy for an organised groups such as political parties, religious groups, unions, the local press... to get 3,500 signatures together and then stopping the duly elected representative from having to do anything but campaign to get re-elected for the next month. Many such groups would do this time and time again simply build up a list of signatories and then call on them whenever you want to prevent the MP from doing their job.

 

Unscrupulous right wing groups would put significant resources into building up just such signatory groups in the constituencies of all high profile labour MPs continually calling elections, unscrupulous types on the left would do the same. Brown, Clegg and Cameron would continually be out of office and fighting for re-election.

 

MPs need to have the ability to concentrate upon their job of representing their constituents, writing legislation and holding the executive to account. A recall provision would prevent them from doing and totally paralyse the political system unless it's triggering was well out of the reach of any group with and axe to grind.

[esme]

Why not just vote for a party that ALREADY has these polcies? - Both of these are already Liberal Democrat policy.

 

Standing as a spolier candidate will achieve nothing - you'll definitely lose your deposit, and probably end up helping the candidates you want rid of.

 

I believe that everyone has a DUTY to vote - it is simply not good enough to say 'I don't like any of them'. If you really can't decide between Labour, Conservative or Lib Dem, then choose one of the other parties.

You may not agree with every policy, but there is likely that at least one of the parties will have values closer to your own than others.

 

(Just don't vote for the nazis in the BNP)

if you can guarantee they'll get in then fine, otherwise I want these promises on every party manifesto, I want all MP's committed to them not just those belonging to a party that might win but the last time they did so was around a hundred years ago

This isn't true. Individuals not party representatives are elected to parliament. Party leaders can throw an MP out of their party they cannot 'sack them' if they could MPs wound't be able to switch parties.

thanks for the clarification, if an MP wishes to vote according to their conscience and not the party line, while still wishing to remain in the party, then they will have a rough ride, which is more than the electorate can give them

They already can, they simply have to wait till the next election.

anything up to five, long, comfortable, salaried years later, and even then if the party wants this particular MP in office they find a safe seat and parachute them in, I want the electorate to be able to take them out of office and remove their power and authority regardless of the parties wishes

No problem it's easy to miss posts in busy threads. Anyway I think 5% is far too low. The average constituency is about 70,000 5% of that is only 3,500. It would be all too easy for an organised groups such as political parties, religious groups, unions, the local press... to get 3,500 signatures together and then stopping the duly elected representative from having to do anything but campaign to get re-elected for the next month. Many such groups would do this time and time again simply build up a list of signatories and then call on them whenever you want to prevent the MP from doing their job.

 

Unscrupulous right wing groups would put significant resources into building up just such signatory groups in the constituencies of all high profile labour MPs continually calling elections, unscrupulous types on the left would do the same. Brown, Clegg and Cameron would continually be out of office and fighting for re-election.

 

MPs need to have the ability to concentrate upon their job of representing their constituents, writing legislation and holding the executive to account. A recall provision would prevent them from doing and totally paralyse the political system unless it's triggering was well out of the reach of any group with and axe to grind.

ok increase the percentage

 

in my constituency the voting breakdown for 2005 was as follows

 

Labour - 60.1%

Lib Dem - 16.97%

Cons - 14.4%

UKIP - 4.54%

BNP - 3.99%

 

(source - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attercliffe_%28UK_Parliament_constituency%29)

 

so would something around 20% be more effective ?

[Hairyloon]

not nit picking at all, you are quite correct

 

the only policies the person who stands will have are these

 

1 - they will resign if they are elected

2 - they will stand in the subsequent election and resign again forcing another election

3 - they will keep this up until politicians agree to put the views of the majority of the electorate before those of the party or even their own, at which point the protest candidate will stand down...

I'm not convinced by this plan, but there is a year or two before the next general election...

Best get cracking on organising it if you want it to happen.

[El Cid]

I am 50 years voted in every national election, but my vote has never been counted towards elkecting my MP.

Only a few times for the city election, and once for the parish election.

 

But is has always been counted towards electing an MP for the EU.

 

I dont like the current system.

[Hairyloon]

I dont like the current system.

No. It needs to change...

But to what?

 

As I've said before, I've not yet heard a better plan than in Hacker's great reform.