An alternative to not voting or spoiling your ballot in a general election

[redrobbo]

Your post is notable for its lack of suggestions, red!

 

Hmm, yes, it is rather.

 

But then you see I'm not really in favour of esme's proposal. Plus, as a member of a registered political party, I'm currently trying to persuade folk to vote for my party - and not against it by starting up a new party!

 

PS You don't seem to have got any takers so far Phan. Even esme has disappeared.

[redrobbo]

Your post is notable for its lack of suggestions, red!

 

Well, on reflection, maybe you need something with a bit of oomph! Something eye-catching. Something altogether more positive. Something that will appeal to the punters (err, I mean voters).

 

How about: The Tickled Pink Party?

[Phanerothyme]

"Ain't voting for any of these" party

"no candidate meets minimum standards" party

"better than spoiling my ballot" party

"PR or bust" party

"There must be a better candidate" party.

"This election is a joke" party

"My Preferred candidate not listed here" party

[esme]

oh I'm still here redrobbo, I've not gone anywhere, I want to see if anyone else is going to take part or whether I'm banging my head against a wall

 

I've put this idea out there and supported it, I can't do this on my own and if people cannot be bothered to pick up the torch then that's fine by me it's their choice

 

as I keep saying I know who I am voting for, but if you want to make a protest that will actually be noticed then here is how you can do it

 

after that if you want to spoil your ballot or sit on the sofa watching eastenders then that's your choice, just remember more people spoiled or abstained than voted for the winning party in the last election, so that was a really effective protest wasn't it

 

if people are going to pick it up then they have until the end of the week to do so, but if they don't then I don't want to hear them complain about whoever wins

 

and while I fully understand and support you wishing to attract these protest voters to vote for your party, there remains a pretty fundamental block in the way

 

in that the elected ones do not have to pay any attention to the wishes of the protesters once elected but they do have to listen to the party

 

sort that out and you'll have people in droves

 

don't sort that out and we'll continue with the system that's turned democracy in this country into a bad joke

 

having decisions made for you without being able to affect them is not democracy

 

having to make a binding choice for five years based on promises made today that may change tomorrow is no choice at all

 

Phanerothyme - how about

 

"people not parties"

"answer to the people"

[redrobbo]

oh I'm still here redrobbo, I've not gone anywhere, I want to see if anyone else is going to take part or whether I'm banging my head against a wall

 

Did you know that indentations on your forehead are the new tattoo!

I've put this idea out there and supported it, I can't do this on my own and if people cannot be bothered to pick up the torch then that's fine by me it's their choice

 

You've used a very interesting word here esme, namely "choice". Apathy

is often the reason a winning candidate succeeds at the ballot, as much as it is the reason why the losing candidates don't suceed. But whether to vote or abstain is a choice that each individual has to make - unless voting is made compulsory.

as I keep saying I know who I am voting for, but if you want to make a protest that will actually be noticed then here is how you can do it

 

after that if you want to spoil your ballot or sit on the sofa watching eastenders then that's your choice, just remember more people spoiled or abstained than voted for the winning party in the last election, so that was a really effective protest wasn't it

 

Just because a ballot paper is spoiled doesn't necessarily imply that it was a deliberate action by the voter.

 

I have seen countless spoiled ballot papers at election counts. Some have no mark, some have obscene messages scrawled on them, some have a message supporting a party that doesn't have a candidate on the ballot paper, some vote for more than one candidate, some are signed (which are automatically rejected as they identify the voter in what is a secret ballot), some have marks which unfortunately cross the dividing line between two candidates (and thus they cannot be counted as there is uncertainty as to which candidate the voter was actually voting for).

 

The reasons for spoiled ballots are endless. Some, though exceptionally rare in my experience, have 'None of them' (or something similar) written on them.

 

 

if people are going to pick it up then they have until the end of the week to do so, but if they don't then I don't want to hear them complain about whoever wins

 

Whilst I have no doubt about your sincerity, you have left it very late to organise a new protest party, get it registered, etc., etc.

and while I fully understand and support you wishing to attract these protest voters to vote for your party, there remains a pretty fundamental block in the way

 

in that the elected ones do not have to pay any attention to the wishes of the protesters once elected but they do have to listen to the party

 

sort that out and you'll have people in droves

 

don't sort that out and we'll continue with the system that's turned democracy in this country into a bad joke

 

having decisions made for you without being able to affect them is not democracy

 

having to make a binding choice for five years based on promises made today that may change tomorrow is no choice at all

 

But the UK happens to have a parliamentary democracy based on political parties and by convention parliaments run for a maximum of five years (nb. as the British Constitution is unwritten, there is actually no statute which stipulates the length of a parliament).

 

The alternative to political parties is for candidates to stand as independents in a loose alliance.

Phanerothyme - how about

 

"people not parties"

"answer to the people"

 

Your first choice "people not parties" amply demonstrates my point about candidates standing as independents. The suggested title implies that individuals are preferred to political parties. So why bother with trying to form a protest party - why not encourage individuals to stand as independents?

 

In some parts of the country independent often means Tory though.

 

There are currently only 2 elected independent members of parliament, one of whom has actually been re-elected as an independent ( a rare, if not unique achievement by the way).

[Phanerothyme]

I think it's too late this time around, but we'll all still be here in 5 years time (I hope) - and given that nothing significant will change by the next election, I reckon it's worth a serious punt.

 

There's nothing like cutting the leg off a safe seat to make people pay attention - you just have to have something cogent to say when they do.

 

I'm in agreement with esme that "democracy" of the form we tout abroad and claim to practice at home is so far removed from the rule of the people as to be unrecognisable.

 

The British political system could use some reform, and not of the rather inadequate "root and branch" variety - rather pull the whole thing down with a digger and plant something a little less ostentatious, byzantine, and prone to rot.

 

A serious, spanner in the works movement promoting electoral and parliamentary reform is probably just what we need.

[dave41]

I've seen a number of people posting that they don't see the point in voting as it won't make a difference or they intend to spoil their ballots deliberately as some form of protest

 

these measures will have absolutely no effect

 

spoilt ballots are counted, kept for a year and then binned, abstentions aren't even counted

 

you want to change the system ? you want politicians to sit up and take some notice of you ? you want your vote to actually mean something ?

 

here is how you do it

 

you stand at the next general election as a parliamentary candidate

 

your party will be called the "None of the above" party or the "I don't think any of the other candidates are worth voting for" party or some other variation

 

your manifesto will be that on election you will immediately call for another general election, stand down as an MP and undertake to stand in any subsequent election until all parties agree to introduce true proportional representation and give constituencies the right to recall and dismiss MP's who are not reflecting the views of the constituency

 

that's just two suggestions for demands, you may have better ones

 

your party will only need one candidate per constituency, you won't need to canvas opinions, in fact you won't need to leave your home and your deposit will be safe providing all the other people who would otherwise spoil their ballot or not bother voting actually vote for you, in fact if these people turn out you will win by a landslide

 

you can organise candidates for each constituency by using an internet chatroom, free ones are available and dead easy to set up

 

don't worry about publicity, if this happens it will be all over the news, twitter, facebook, you name it, people will hear

 

essentially you will be holding the political process to ransom by preventing it's operation until it works the way you want, the only problem will be whether you accept the word of the political parties when they tell you they agree to your demands

 

ok thats one idea, there are probably many more and better ideas out there

 

but I don't want to hear one more person saying they aren't going to vote or they are going to spoil their ballots

 

you can change the system by using the system so stop whining about it and do something

 

and if you can't be bothered to make a proper protest that will have some effect then I don't want to hear from you, I know who I'm going to vote for but you never know if a "None of the above" candidate were presented I might just change my mind

 

to vote is one of the most important acts an individual can do. apathy is not an option, nor is it a protest its just lazy:(

[Stoatwobbler]

You've used a very interesting word here esme, namely "choice". Apathy is often the reason a winning candidate succeeds at the ballot, as much as it is the reason why the losing candidates don't suceed. But whether to vote or abstain is a choice that each individual has to make - unless voting is made compulsory.

 

Ah but voter apathy is not nessessarily a bad thing for you politicians. If a politician can't get you to vote for them, then the next best thing for them is that you don't vote at all. That way none of their opponents get your vote either.

 

Hence politicians use dodgy out of scale bar charts and scare tactics to try convince people that a vote for another party is a "wasted vote" and not worth the bother.

 

Trouble is that whilst voter apathy might well be useful to politicians seeking to grab power for themselves it does nothing to further the best interests of the voters. That's why it we voters always need to make the effort, because the only way we are ever going to get better politicians is by giving them a good kick in the ballot box!

[milquetoast1]

Well I've read through this thread and I must admit that I'm very interested in the idea.

 

I did briefly think about standing as an independent with the manifesto "I promise to be as useless as the rest, but at least I will gift aid all my not insignificant MP's salary to Sheffield Children's Hospital"

 

Could we incorporate the last bit into the new party to incentivise non-voters?

[esme]

Did you know that indentations on your forehead are the new tattoo!

oh excellent so I'll be dahn wiv da yoof vote then

 

You've used a very interesting word here esme, namely "choice". Apathy

is often the reason a winning candidate succeeds at the ballot, as much as it is the reason why the losing candidates don't suceed. But whether to vote or abstain is a choice that each individual has to make - unless voting is made compulsory.

as I said before you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink, so forcing people to the ballot box won't actually make people vote it will just increase the number of unfilled ballots

 

and you may be correct it may be voter apathy and not a protest

 

but you have to ask yourself where that apathy comes from, is it innate perhaps ?

 

or is it a result of taking part in a political system that doesn't respond to the desires of the electorate, so no matter who they vote for nothing they care about changes, so not taking part becomes as good an option as taking part ?

 

if you for example keep saying you want something to happen and not one person takes any notice and nothing happens despite all your efforts, would you continue or would you, possibly after many years of wasting your time, eventually give up and direct your energies to things you have some control over ?

 

Just because a ballot paper is spoiled doesn't necessarily imply that it was a deliberate action by the voter.

 

I have seen countless spoiled ballot papers at election counts. Some have no mark, some have obscene messages scrawled on them, some have a message supporting a party that doesn't have a candidate on the ballot paper, some vote for more than one candidate, some are signed (which are automatically rejected as they identify the voter in what is a secret ballot), some have marks which unfortunately cross the dividing line between two candidates (and thus they cannot be counted as there is uncertainty as to which candidate the voter was actually voting for).

 

The reasons for spoiled ballots are endless. Some, though exceptionally rare in my experience, have 'None of them' (or something similar) written on them.

absolutely true, there is no telling the intent of a spoiled ballot, however the website you kindly pointed me at is a chart of and I'll quote

the percentage of registered voters who actually voted at each general election from 1945–2005, excluding votes deliberately or accidentally spoiled

so in the last election there was a 61.4% turnout, meaning that 38.6% of the electorate did not turn out

 

they did not spoil their ballots they simply didn't vote

 

so if you include the spoiled papers as well the number of non voters is higher, though by how much is debatable as I cannot find the figures

 

so you can dismiss spoiled papers on any grounds you like, you can't dismiss roughly 38% of the people not voting being significantly more than the roughly 21% who voted for the winning party

 

Whilst I have no doubt about your sincerity, you have left it very late to organise a new protest party, get it registered, etc., etc.

I am aware of that now, I wasn't aware of it when I first lost patience with someone posting that they weren't going to vote as it made no difference and published a means of making a real protest as an alternative

 

sadly I am not in charge of the political timetable

 

however it is possible to make it work in this election, we have tools that were unavailable in previous elections, social networking has come along in leaps and bounds

 

twitter was recently instrumental in mobilising a huge protest against Trafigura when they attempted to prevent the Guardian publishing details of an MP's question

 

maybe it could be used here as well

But the UK happens to have a parliamentary democracy based on political parties and by convention parliaments run for a maximum of five years (nb. as the British Constitution is unwritten, there is actually no statute which stipulates the length of a parliament).

 

The alternative to political parties is for candidates to stand as independents in a loose alliance.

it is not a convention that parliament runs for five years,

The Parliament Act 1911 established the maximum life of a Parliament as five years. Parliaments have twice been extended beyond five years, during the two world wars. The 1911 Parliament was extended to eight years by the Parliament and Registration Act 1916, and the Parliament and Local Elections Acts 1916 and 1918. The 1935 Parliament was extended to ten years by the Prolongation of Parliament Acts 1940, 1941, 1942, 1943 and 1944.

(source - http://www.parliament.uk/documents/upload/M07.pdf)

 

do you seriously think a party in power would call a general election if it had any choice in the matter, it takes an act of parliament to extend a term and even with the governments majority getting such an act through parliament without the exigent circumstance of a world war would be difficult

 

governments call general elections under two circumstances

1. when they are 100% convinced they are going to win
   
2. when they run out of time
   

parliament will cease to exist on midnight of Monday May 10th 2010 and a general election to elect a new parliament must be held no later than Thursday 3rd June 2010, there is no choice in this matter, there are no reasons for an act of parliament to extend the term, the government has run out of time, all they can do is pick what they consider to be the best date from a rapidly diminishing set of options

(source - http://www.electoralcommission.org.uk/faq/elections/what-is-the-last-possible-date-for-a-general-election)

 

with a loose association of independents ministers would actually have to turn up in the house and debate issues they feel passionate about in an effort to sway the opinion of the rest of the house and get them to vote for it, the noble MP fighting for a just cause on behalf of the people they serve because they believe it is the right thing to do

 

which is what I always thought politicians did, when I was very, very, young

 

as opposed to the think tank of the party with the largest majority coming up with a scheme and the party whip forcing everyone to steamroller it through the house using a block vote, the "we've got more seats than everyone else combined so we are going to do exactly what we like regardless of anybodies opinion" tactic, the perception of the electroate is usually the scheme benefits industry and people with money more than it benefits the electorate

 

which is what I now know happens, gone is the vision of the noble and respected MP fighting tirelessly on my behalf, to be replaced with an alternative vision of an MP seated by a large table groaning with food and alcohol while big business whispers in their ears, and that's the polite vision

 

Your first choice "people not parties" amply demonstrates my point about candidates standing as independents. The suggested title implies that individuals are preferred to political parties. So why bother with trying to form a protest party - why not encourage individuals to stand as independents?

the point of the protest party is that all forms of protest that are currently available are completely ineffective

 

you can abstain, spoil, march, petition or write to your MP and MP's will carry on doing what they are doing while you protest

 

then you will eventually stop protesting and MP's will still carry on doing what they are doing

 

meanwhile some secretary somewhere will draft a response that says the equivalent of "very sorry but..." and some minister will then sign it, MP's need not have even looked up from their morning crossword and cup of tea and the matter will have been dealt with

 

with this protest there is at least a chance that MP's will not be able to carry blithely on with what they are doing, that they will have to stop and pay attention to the electorate, something they are quite unused to, until the electorate decide to stop protesting, the ministers will be in the position of not being in control, the ministers will be in the position of having their wishes ignored, the ministers will in short be in the position of the electorate

 

I wonder how they'll like it

 

the title "people not parties" implies independents standing to you, because you are misreading it, the intent is that the wants of the electorate take precedence over the wants of the party and that everyone protesting says this one message, not that lots of independent candidates should all shout in different directions about different things

 

and we don't wish to stand as multiple independent candidates because as you are quite aware presenting the electorate with multiple candidates standing on several different platforms will fragment the vote between them and dilute the effect of a protest vote

 

if the electorate really wish to make a protest it is far better to have a single point to rally round and a single candidate per constituency standing for a single party which has a single aim, then there is no possible confusion, and all votes cast for that party are purely and simply a protest against the system that currently governs us and doesn't care about whether we like it or not

 

In some parts of the country independent often means Tory though.

true, which is another good reason not to stand as independents isn't it

 

There are currently only 2 elected independent members of parliament, one of whom has actually been re-elected as an independent ( a rare, if not unique achievement by the way).

good for them, I wish them luck in the election, unless of course a protest candidate stands against them, in which case I want them to lose