Michigan-based militant group indicted for 'waging war' on US gov't

[Harleyman]

Hmm, that's a little melodramatic.

 

The UK's Bill of Rights also allowed citizens to bear arms until just after WW1 when it was realised that all those weapons in private hands could cause problems, like they do in the US. All that happened was that citizens had to ask for permission to have one. Even now we still have the right to possess weapons.

 

Harleyman, as a Yorkshireman you know the system in the UK and it works fine. As generations have moved on it's accepted and we have minuscule gun crime and accidents. It's a shame that the USA ignored the opportunity to do the same in the past.

 

Imagine the States with a proper attitude to guns. They could do it if they wanted to. They could eliminate all those deaths and accidents. They just don't want to because they are frightened for no good reason, but the UK experience says it is pretty straight forward.

 

Interesting observation about the UK right to bear arms abolished just after WW1 under the excuse that "weapons in private hands could cause problems"

Who thought that one up? I'll tell you. The British establishment of that time, the rich ruling upper class and the aristocrats who were petrified with fear that the spread of Bolshevism from Russia into Europe and then to England could start to upset the status quo, that being the low working class population who had been kept firmly in their place for generations. They already had enough to fear from the advent of Socialism which was already spreading rapidly throughout post WW1 Europe. Thus, the only people who could bear arms after that were the aristocrats and the military forces.

 

Owning guns is deeply ingrained in the American psych. It dates from the Revolution and early frontier days when settlers relied on guns to not only provide them with food but also to fight off the hostile natives, robbers and outlaws as they moved westwards through thousands of miles of unknown territory.

 

I'm prepared to bet that if I were in the UK and requested permission to own a revolver or automatic pistol that the request would be quickly denied.

When I was living in the UK decades ago criminals with guns were practically non-existent but that's not the case today. The illegal trade in guns is part of the criminal scene in the UK today.

 

I, like millions of others own firearms which I use for target competition shooting and occasional hunting and I would not turn them in because a minority use them for criminal activities. Even if the day ever came that a government attempted to outlaw gun ownership and disarm the entire population it would be doomed from the start. That government would go down very quickly to electoral defeat, millions would defy the order especially the criminal element, a completely lost cause.

 

Finally if people want to kill each other for whatever purpose they will always find some way to do it with or without guns. Thats just part of the human mentality.

[jobee]

Nine members of a Christian group have been indicted on charges of conspiring to wage war against the US government.

 

Federal prosecutors say the group, known as Hutaree or "Christian warriors" planned to kill law enforcement officers as part of a plot to levy war on the US.

 

these were christian warriors, millions of them.

 

 

 

 

http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/p/NaziChristian.htm

[jobee]

Not a chance unless people like Hitler and Stalin get in. Those two were very much for gun control

 

talking about hitler

 

http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/p/NaziChristian.htm

[Harleyman]

these were christian warriors, millions of them.

 

 

http://atheism.about.com/od/adolfhitlernazigermany/p/NaziChristian.htm

 

They are not christians.. They are a group of deranged people who adopted the name of "christian militants"

[JFKvsNixon]

They are not christians.. They are a group of deranged people who adopted the name of "christian militants"

 

My Muslim friends say the same thing about 'Islamic militants'. For what it's worth I agree with you and them.

[Harleyman]

My Muslim friends say the same thing about 'Islamic militants'. For what it's worth I agree with you and them.

 

Poor old jobee He lumps everyone under the same group

[TeaFan]

I think the main interest of this story is not so much that this was a Christian fundamentalist organisation, but that it was a militia group based in Michigan. There's an awful lot of material on You Tube at the moment showing the dire living conditions that people in that US state are now facing- in particular in Detroit, but also Flint, Cleveland and other post-industrialised cities in the state. In large part these places look more like war zones than cities.

 

Dying Detroit video-

 

The mayor of Detroit recently proposed the idea of actually demolishing huge parts of the city and re-converting it to agricultural land because the huge spate of house foreclosures following the recession had left so much of the city uninhabited and terribly run down.

 

What is particularly worrying is the sense that Michigan may only be the first example of this type of state failure- it's well known that California is bankrupt and many other states are also in a dire financial situation. The number of extremist militia-type groups has risen dramatically since the last recession and many futurists believe that the US has overstretched itself in the same way that all Empires have done historically- the British Empire went through the same process, as did the USSR more recently. Some US states are even trying to break free of federal control and to be recognised as individual nations just as happened in the USSR. Given this sense of terminal decline and impoverishment I don't think we should be too surprised to read many more of these stories over the next few years and we should probably hope that the UK doesn't follow suit.

 

This 1 1/2 hour video is a lecture given by Dimitry Orlov on the likely challenges the US government and people face in the years ahead, he uses his experiences of the Russian collapse to outline the situation, but in great Russian fashion also provides a darkly humorous overview-

http://fora.tv/2009/02/13/Dmitry_Orlov_Social_Collapse_Best_Practices

 

I'd love to hear what people think of his predictions.

 

Given that this is still (just about) the world's greatest superpower, it doesn't say much for capitalism does it? This is the pinnacle of achievement it has to offer?

[Cavegirl]

These are some interesting points that Orlov raised in his paper 'Closing the Collapse Gap' in which he compares the current US situation with that of the USSR in the early 90's:

 

Here's the link:

http://www.energybulletin.net/node/23259

 

Housing:

USSR- State owned, free rent, accessible by public transport

USA - Owned by banks, foreclosures/ evictions, inaccessible except by car

 

Transport:

USSR- Public, continues to run, maintainable

USA - Private cars/ trucks, fuel shortages, many potholes

 

Employment:

USSR- Public, slowdowns, payment delays

USA - Private, shutdowns, mass layoffs

 

Families:

USSR- 3 generations in 1 home, close-knit

USA - Nuclear families, alienated

 

Money:

USSR- Income not essential, product based economy

USA - Income essential for survival, service based economy

 

Food:

USSR- Kitchen gardens, home cooking, physically active

USA - Supermarkets, fast food, obesity epidemic

 

Energy:

USSR- Self-sufficient, state owned, price controls

USA - 65% import of oil & some nat. gas, privately supplied, profiteering

 

As these facts show, if the US is in decline it's likely to be much much worse for US citizens than it was for the Russians.

[Harleyman]

The city of Detroit is a bit of a special case and not a reflecttion on the state of the rest of the US as a whole. Obviously the city has suffered economically as a result of the decline of the US auto industry and in addition to some of the assembly plants relocating to other parts of the country.

 

Much of the state of the city can be placed to demographics. During and after WW2 thousands of poor people from the south moved up north to take advantage of the well paid employment opportunities. No one needed much brains to work on an assembly line screwing in headlights and tail lights on one car after another. Unfortunatley too many of these people when times were good did not see the necessity to send their kids to college. If dad made a good living from Ford and General Motors then so could dad's son when he left school. Consequently when the bad times came much of the population in the city did not have the educational qualifications to move onto into jobs demanding a higher standard of education and a college degree of some sort which lead to the situation the city is now in. Uneducated people dont know enough to be able to understand politicians, their agendas. their aptitude and business acumen which is essential when running a city let alone any business Instead they vote for blow hards, long on rhetoric but short on achievment. A city is only as good as the brains who administer it, who are capable of attracting outside investment and businesses and the leaders of Detroit from what I see lack those qualities

[Harleyman]

These are some interesting points that Orlov raised in his paper 'Closing the Collapse Gap' in which he compares the current US situation with that of the USSR in the early 90's:

 

Here's the link:

http://www.energybulletin.net/node/23259

 

Housing:

USSR- State owned, free rent, accessible by public transport

USA - Owned by banks, foreclosures/ evictions, inaccessible except by car

 

Transport:

USSR- Public, continues to run, maintainable

USA - Private cars/ trucks, fuel shortages, many potholes

 

Employment:

USSR- Public, slowdowns, payment delays

USA - Private, shutdowns, mass layoffs

 

Families:

USSR- 3 generations in 1 home, close-knit

USA - Nuclear families, alienated

 

Money:

USSR- Income not essential, product based economy

USA - Income essential for survival, service based economy

 

Food:

USSR- Kitchen gardens, home cooking, physically active

USA - Supermarkets, fast food, obesity epidemic

 

Energy:

USSR- Self-sufficient, state owned, price controls

USA - 65% import of oil & some nat. gas, privately supplied, profiteering

 

As these facts show, if the US is in decline it's likely to be much much worse for US citizens than it was for the Russians.

 

The average Russian still doesn't have a really decent living standard. Much of the population still live in apartment buildings, can only afford a bare bones economy car and do not have the financial means to be able to travel abroad.

 

After the collapse of communism some Russians achieved riches from the new economic policies just as some Chinese have become prosperous from the relaxation from communistic rules and regulations but given the sizes of the populations of these two countries this prosperity has still not reached the great majority of it's peoples yet