Ryan air refuse to pay.

[Kingmaker2]

God has never existed so whose fault is it really? I blame thermal underwear.

 

It's certainly not the airlines fault, and that's the point I'm making.

[cloudybay]

It certainly not the airlines fault, and that's the point I'm making.

 

Rather a facile point as I tried to explain to you earlier.

 

If you don't like the contract then don't sign up.............rather like marriage really

 

The airlines are contractually obliged to provide whatever services they have signed up to provide.

 

Blame or fault has nothing whatsoever to do with it.

[garrence]

I know a lot about this subject.

 

Under EC261 it is the passenger's option whether to take a refund or rerouting. If they choose rerouting, it is the airline's responsibility to pay any reasonable accommodation and transport costs incurred.

 

The airline must also pay compensation to the passenger except in certain extraordinary circumstances - with events like this being exactly what the "extraordinary circumstances" clause is for.

 

Therefore in this case, if a passenger has choosen to be rerouted - or has not been informed of their rights - then the airline must pay their reasonable costs (hotels, transport) but not the fixed price compensation element.

 

The airlines must have a copy of your rights on display at checkin and must give you a copy at the airport in the event of cancellation, delay or denied boarding.

 

Note that Ryanair's EC261 information is misleading (in their favour) about your rights. Therefore passengers should take a copy of the regulations with them on holiday.

 

The time that Ryanair abandoned me in Marrakech they (illegally) did not provide such information or offer a choice of rerouting, or have anyone at the airport. The airport staff said "I have telephoned Ryanair to find out where your flight is and they have said is it cancelled owing to fog in Marrakech and they will refund your money". No choice of rerouting, no EC261 info - fend for yourself. No fog either on that beautiful sunny morning with several Easyjet flights arriving and leaving....

 

So they manage to evade having to reroute you and pay your hotel costs simply by not fulfilling their legal obligations, and then claiming that they did so in the letter writing after the event.

 

Although not relevant here (because of extraordinary circumstances), passengers should know that Ryanair do not pay EC261 compensation. I understand they simply claim "extraordinary circumstances" every time they cancel, hence claiming Marrakech was in thick fog when it was not. (extraordinary must be truly extraordinary , not things like a small aircraft fault or bad weather that an airline must deal with as a normal part of business).

 

“Nobody helps you — it’s as simple as that,” said Malcolm Ginsberg, editor in chief of the travel newsletter aerbt.co.uk, describing what happens to Ryanair passengers who need assistance at the airport.

 

.....

 

“Will we put you in a hotel room if your flight was canceled?” Mr. O’Leary asked rhetorically. “No! Go away.”

 

If passengers have not been offered rerouting and hotel accommodation at the airport at the time of cancellation then the airline has broken European law. They rely on you giving up trying to persue them. You may try the following:

 

Write letters to them. You must do this before taking legal action because you must show you have tried to resolve your dispute before court. You'll likely get a refund of your ticket price but will not get EC261 compensation (not due in this case anyway) and they will claim you were given a copy of your EC261 rights at the airport and chose not to take them.

 

Contact the National Enforcement Body which in the UK is the Air Transport Users Council. Don't bother. They can only ask (not compel) the airline to comply. Which it won't.

 

UK small claims court. Ryanair are Irish registered without a UK office and therefore you cannot serve papers on them in the UK. There is a chance that their London solicitors may agree to receive service.

 

Irish small claims court. You can take them to the small claims court in Swords near Dublin. The court will not hear the case if you want to include EC261 compensation so you can just claim for the costs you incur. You must attend in person. I understand that typically their lawyer will settle at the court on the day.

 

Euclaim.com for the EC261 compensation element only, not costs (therefore not applicable in this case).

 

European small claims court. A new option that has (AFAIK) yet to hear an EC261 case. Unlike the UK and Irish small claims court, if you lose then Ryanair can make you pay their costs.

 

We're getting EUClaim to handle the EC261 compensation then will use the European small claims court for our costs incurred. It's taken us well over a year to get to this point.

 

I hope this info is helpful to someone. Please contact me if I can be of assistance. The forum at FlightMole.com is a good place to find out about the latest EC261 cases.

 

Do I agree with the EC261 legislation? In our case, yes, because I believe that Ryanair deliberately stopped at an earlier airport because they were clearly running late and there was no fog. I think that abandoning passengers to get back on schedule is part of their business model and exactly what EC261 is aimed at.

 

In the current case I'm minded to still think "yes" because they can factor such costs into their business model, take out insurance, or borrow money and put up fares later.

[HeadingNorth]

Rather a facile point as I tried to explain to you earlier.

 

 

You were wrong then, as well. Since these are exceptional circumstances and not Ryanair's fault, then the "law is the law is the law" that you keep referring to does not apply.

[garrence]

You were wrong then, as well. Since these are exceptional circumstances and not Ryanair's fault, then the "law is the law is the law" that you keep referring to does not apply.

 

Yes it does, but only partially. I explained fully above, but briefly, the airline MUST offer rerouting or refund. If the passenger chooses rerouting then the airline must pay their costs whilst waiting to be rerouted.

 

EC261 also provides for compensation to discourage airlines from deliberately abandoning passengers (yes they do that) but not in "extraordinary circumstances" such as now.

 

See EC261 Article 4 clause 3.

[Bruno]

This thread is wonderful, plenty of people to slate an airline and probably some who have never flown with them or never flown at all.

 

As a frequent flyer on all budget airlines and others such as BA and Virgin, below is what typical when booking with Ryanair.

 

When you proceed with your booking, you have to change the fact you don't need insurance if you don't want the one ryanair offers.

 

To finalise your booking you have to tick that you have read terms and conditions, below is part of thier terms:

FLIGHT CANCELLATIONS AND SCHEDULE CHANGES

If your flight is cancelled or before the date of travel, is rescheduled so as to depart more than three hours before or after the original departure time then you will be entitled to a travel credit or full refund of all monies paid if the alternative flight/s offered are not suitable to you and you do not travel.

 

Ryanair does not provide monetary compensation under Article 7 of EU Regulation 261/2004 for flights which are delayed or cancelled for reasons beyond Ryanair's control (extraordinary circumstances). You may therefore wish to ensure that you have suitable private insurance cover in force to cover such eventualities. Your rights under EU Regulation 261/2004 are unaffected, so in the case of denied boarding, flight cancellation or a delay in excess of two hours; a written notice setting out the rules for compensation and assistance in line with such Regulation will be provided to affected passengers who present themselves to our staff at the airport service desks.

 

So! Ryanair are covered in the bold above.

 

under the Regulation 261

 

If a flight is cancelled, passengers are automatically entitled to their choice of (a.) re-routing to the same destination at the earliest opportunity (under comparable conditions); (b.) later rerouting, at the passenger's convenience, to the same destination under comparable conditions (subject to seat availability); or (c.) a refund of the ticket as well as a return flight to the point of first departure, when relevant. Any ticket refund is the price paid for the flight(s) not used, plus the cost of flights already flown in cases where the cancellation has made those flights of no purpose. Where applicable, passengers are also entitled to refreshments, communication and accommodation as described below. Where re-routing is to another airport serving the same destination, the airline must pay for onward transport to the original airport or to a close-by destination agreed with the passenger. These choices, and the entitlement to refreshments, etc., apply to all cancellations, regardless of whether the circumstances are extraordinary or not.

 

Ryanair are totally covered by offering a flight at the earliest oppertunity, if a person chooses to make thier own arrangement it's not down to Ryanair.

[garrence]

Bruno - RyanAir's EU261 (as they call it) interpretation muddies the compensation element with the costs and rerouting element. A passenger reading it would think that they do not have any rights in extraordinary circumstances when in fact it's just the compensation element that you don't get.

 

You're right that if a person makes their own arrangements then they are just entitled to a refund (plus compensation in normal circumstances).

 

It'll be interesting to see what percentage of people get rerouted, what hassle they get in trying to do so, and how many people have been denied their EC261 rights.

[Bruno]

I know a lot about this subject.

 

The time that Ryanair abandoned me in Marrakech they (illegally) did not provide such information or offer a choice of rerouting, or have anyone at the airport. The airport staff said "I have telephoned Ryanair to find out where your flight is and they have said is it cancelled owing to fog in Marrakech and they will refund your money". No choice of rerouting, no EC261 info - fend for yourself. No fog either on that beautiful sunny morning with several Easyjet flights arriving and leaving....

 

So they manage to evade having to reroute you and pay your hotel costs simply by not fulfilling their legal obligations, and then claiming that they did so in the letter writing after the event.

 

Although not relevant here (because of extraordinary circumstances), passengers should know that Ryanair do not pay EC261 compensation. I understand they simply claim "extraordinary circumstances" every time they cancel, hence claiming Marrakech was in thick fog when it was not. (extraordinary must be truly extraordinary , not things like a small aircraft fault or bad weather that an airline must deal with as a normal part of business).

 

 

Just read your post, when your flight is cancelled, you can change your flight free of charge to the next available oppertunity on-line.

 

If you dispute thier claim about fog, challenge them in court, but they will have proof if airtraffic control has cancelled, although it may not have been foggy at the airport, it could have been elsewhere.

 

Again as in my last post you ticked to agree you read thier terms and conditions when you booked your flight.

[garrence]

Hi, I didn't know about being able to change flights online. That's useful info, thanks. It wasn't the case in Oct 2008 otherwise I'm sure they would have said so in their "get lost" letters we have from them.

 

Yes we're trying to challenge them in court - my long post above explains why this is difficult and the options available. It's a numbers game to the airlines - make it difficult and most people will give up.

 

The terms and conditions bit is irrelevant really. They cannot deny your statutory rights under EC261 and their terms say so: "Your rights under EU Regulation 261/2004 are unaffected".

[Bruno]

Bruno - RyanAir's EU261 (as they call it) interpretation muddies the compensation element with the costs and rerouting element. A passenger reading it would think that they do not have any rights in extraordinary circumstances when in fact it's just the compensation element that you don't get.

 

You're right that if a person makes their own arrangements then they are just entitled to a refund (plus compensation in normal circumstances).

 

It'll be interesting to see what percentage of people get rerouted, what hassle they get in trying to do so, and how many people have been denied their EC261 rights.

 

But like me, when you booked your flight, you don't read the terms etc, all you wanna do is book it and get on your way, same as I do and sometimes you need to do it quick as it's coming up to midnight and offers are changing:hihi:

 

But this thread is about whats happend over the last week, it's not thier fault or any other airline, and is a classic case of exceptional circumstances.

 

I for one would not like to see that these airlines who have been used for flight only (not a package holiday) be forced to pay compensation, they should not have, passengers agreed they should not have to (terms etc as above) as it would destroy thier companies.

 

Again it's so easy for keyboard warriors to post they should this etc, they will because majority dont use them, I don't wanna see airfares rise because of it, as these airline do great for getting low incomed based people abroad either cheaper or about the same as a holiday in the UK.

 

I myself should be out doing a opening night in a Hotel in Ibiza, in wages I have lost out, but! it can't be helped, I'm happy that I have been able to reschedule my flight for next week.