Labours contept for democracy.

[DragonofAna]

Let's take a look at some of those facts that you've been seeking. I'll only use Wikipedia since you could easily go and check this yourself and I'll keep it to just a snapshot of a few nations adjacent to conflicts.

 

Look, I could go on and on and on but it is false to say that other nations don't do their bit. Do you honestly in your heart of hearts expect third-world and developing nations like Bangladesh, Pakistan, India and Iran to receive all the worlds refugees because they happen to be next door?

 

Imagine how bad it has to be for 1.5m people to escape from Burma to live in an illegal disease ridden Thai refugee camp the size of Birmingham.

 

Try some education: http://www.refugeecouncil.org.uk http://www.unhcr.org.uk

 

 

If you truly believe that the UK should not do its bit you have spent too long in your ivory tower.

 

Firstly I have nowhere stated that other countries do not do anything for refugees have I? Point out where I stated this.

Secondly - your figures mean nothing. If you have a country that has 20 million acres of land unoccupied then it can take more people in than a country that has only 2000 acres of land unoccupied. If you cannot see this then you need new specs.

Your comparisons mean nothing and are as vague as usual - used only to support your one sided view without addressing the issues that have been raised previously. We all know you can juggle the figures to suit whatever beliefs you have.

 

Bold: Meaning that if I do not agree with you then I must live in some fantasy land because yours is the belief we should have?

I will continue to disagree with you because you take a bit of fact from one place or another and do not use suitable comparrisons to further your argument.

 

And it seems no-one is capable of answering the questions I posed previously but if you post enough verbal diarrhoea then eventually those questions will be forgotten.

[Tony]

I didn't say that you didn't think that they did their bit. However you insinuated that refugees should stop after crossing the border and that other countries should do more. I explained why the UK should do its bit and how other countries do much more despite very limited resources.

 

Land is usually unoccupied because it is incapable of being occupied effectively. The UK is an especially fertile land by dint of geology and geography so we have always had a large population. It's one of the reasons why we pretty much ran the planet years ago.

 

Many other European nations have a far higher proportion of refugees (and immigrants) than the UK. Other countries DO take refugees and immigrants. Would you agree with that?

 

I am beginning to feel that it's your point of view that you're hanging onto at the moment rather than facts.

 

So, as I'm also keen on facts rather than "verbal diarrhoea", which other facts are you specifically interested in now?

[Cyclone]

It's also worth remembering that illegal immigrants and asylum seekers are not the same thing at all.

No party thinks that illegal immigration should be allowed, the clue is in the name. The only question is how to effectively stop it and what to do with those who are caught being here illegally.

 

Maybe it would be worth looking up the policies on illegal immigration, legal immigration and asylum for all 3 major parties and for the BNP and then posting them here for comparison.

One of the policies from the BNP that seems most offensive, is the idea that non 'indigenous' people (maybe only non-whites, I can't remember) will be offered a cash sum to leave. This policy ignores their nationality, it will include people born here, people who's parents were born here even. How offensive is that, to try to bribe British people to leave their own country because the BNP doesn't like the colour of their skin or their grand parents place of birth!

[Wildcat]

No facts were supplied in response to the questions I posed. What was supplied were the stories that abound concerning the BNP - people's opinions and fairy stories. What has been offered is what people believe the BNP think and not their proposals as laid out in their manifesto.

 

This happens again and again on BNP bashing threads and when all these people have given their misinformed, bias, and fantasy 'so called' facts - you pop in and state the facts have been shown previously.

 

The only person who has even tried appears to be Halibut. The rest all seem to be based around scare stories and rumour mongering.

 

I provided a stack load of facts for you on the link, facts referenced from 26 articles and reports.

 

Let me remind you:

 

The facts about immigration are very different to the claims made by some politicians. Unfortunately many of the myths about migration are repeated in the media. Yet all the available evidence shows migrants have increased economic growth in Britain, that migrants pay more in tax than they use in services and enable the National Health Service to survive.

 

At the same time institutions which seem to have been British since the beginning of time were brought to the UK by migrants. The first person to live on this patch of green was by definition a migrant. The Queen’s family were from overseas. Fish and chips were introduced to east London by Jewish migrants.

 

We at I Love Migrants have put together 10 key facts which show that migrants are good for Britain. The campaign is run by the Joint Council for the Welfare of Immigrants so we’re bound to support migrants rights. However, all our facts have been published by government sources and independent research – so please do check our references.

 

Migration is good for the economy: Studies[1] show that migration has contributed to economic growth by filling skills gaps[2], encouraging inward investment and providing a more flexible workforce. Migration increased growth by £6 billion in 2006[3]. In 2004 to 2005 migrants contributed about one percentage point to the overall growth of 5.3 per cent in this period[4]. There is no evidence that migration leads to higher unemployment[5]. At the same time migrants contribute £41.2 billion in taxes a year, according to recent figures[6].

 

Migration is good for business: Companies confirmed in independent surveys conducted by the Institute of Directors and the British Chamber of Commerce [7] that migrants are hardworking, reliable and in many cases highly skilled. The migration system encourages high wealth individuals and those who have shown entrepreneurial skills to invest, transact and generate business in the UK[8].

 

Migration is good for wages: According to evidence from the Low Pay Commission[9], migration has led to better wages for high and medium skilled employees while having only a very slight or negligible negative impact for the low paid. Migration also means in future we will pay less in National Insurance out of our wage packets[10]. The government has prevented unskilled workers migrating to the UK from outside the EU by suspending Tier 3 (for unskilled migrants) under the Points Based System since its implementation.

 

Migration is good for your health: The National Health Service could not function without migrant workers. A total of 47 percent of nurses working in London were born overseas while 33 percent of doctors practicing in the capital were trained outside the UK[11].

 

Migrants will look after the old: Only through migration will there be enough young people to look after the elderly. Without higher migration the dependency ratio of those in work to those too young or old to work will grow from 61 percent today to 82 percent by 2057[12]. This could mean not enough people paying tax to support care homes, social services and pensions. The United Nations Population Division has suggested that Europe could need up to 13 million migrants by 2050 to help pay for aging populations[13].

 

Migration is good for the public purse: According to the most recent studies[14][15], migrants pay more in taxes than they use in public services. This means they actually pay for services used by the host population. Migrants arrive having been educated and ready to work and pay taxes, saving Britain money[16]. The Home Office made £300 million in profits from migrants’ visa applications[17]. Almost all migrants from outside Europe have no legal entitlement to access council housing while those from within the EU are less likely to need council houses[18]. New migrants contribute to a £70 million fund through visa application charges which is poured into local communities[19].

 

Migration is good for the taste buds: Chicken tikka masala is Britain’s favourite dish while “curry houses” contribute £2.5 billion to the economy[20]. Moreover, the quintessential British fish and chip shop was opened first by Jewish migrant Joseph Malin in 1860 in east London while fried fish was introduced by Jewish migrants fleeing Portugal in the 17th century[21].

 

Migration is good for culture: Some of Britain’s best known celebrities and notables are migrants and refugees – including the author Joseph Conrad, artist Anish Kapoor and actor Rachel Weisz. At the same time, British icons such as the original Mini were invented or designed by migrant workers[22]. Immigration increases diversity and creativity through the exchange of food, faith, families and festivals[23].

 

Migration is good for education: Overseas fees make many courses viable and subsidise study for home students. International students paid between £5.3 billion and £8 billion in fees and other expenditure [24]. This year the Government aims to introduce £449 million in cuts to Higher Education.

 

Migration made Britain. The British Isles were completely empty until humans returned around 14,700 BCE. The land would by definition have been discovered by a migrant[25]. St George was most likely born in what is now Turkey[26]. Recent migration has included Jews fleeing Hitler, Irish fleeing starvation and Commonwealth citizens. Without our rich history of migration, there would be little infrastructure, culture, economy, or health services.

 

So if these don't count as facts, to you. What will?

[John X]

You have all sorts of people who think others are inferior. You have doctors who think street sweepers are inferior. You have street sweepers who think those on the dole are inferior. You have everyone who thinks chavs are inferior. And you have John X who thinks I am inferior. So what does it matter if they believe non-whites are inferior.

 

A doctor has a choice to be a doctor.

 

A street sweeper has a choice to be a street sweeper.

 

A 'chav' has a choice to be a 'chav'

 

However,

 

A black person has no choice over their colour.

 

A gay person has no choice over their sexuality.

 

A woman has no choice over her gender.

 

Do you really not understand the difference between personal opinion and bigotry?

 

John X

[GetItDone]

 

 

 

So if these don't count as facts, to you. What will?

 

They are not "facts" at all...just biased pro-immigration diatribe.

[GetItDone]

He's a turd in a suit, Dragon. Have you had a really good look at what the current government is doing regading immigration - and what the other serious parties propose? I'm quite sure you'll find that the main parties do in fact recognise that Immigration is an issue that concerns many people and that they do have measures planned to deal with it.

Just don't give your vote to a pathetic excuse for a human being like Griffin.

 

Oh please Halibut, its the "serious parties" that have created the immigration "issue" that people are concerned about.

[GetItDone]

Would you like to look at some evidence?

 

All the serious people on the "right" of the political spectrum are not calling for an all white Britain...even the ones who perhaps secretly do want it, recognise its not even doable.

 

The BNP want to put a stop to new immigrants. And so do most people.

[Wildcat]

They are not "facts" at all...just biased pro-immigration diatribe.

 

When news articles and reports don't count as facts, to you and you appear to get your worldview and threads from sites like Stormfront, is there really any point in anyone trying to talk to you? to engage in a debate there has to be some standards of truth and evidence that are shared between the two people.

 

You aren't interested in facts, just rhetoric and trying to stir things up. A nasty mean minded excuse for human being.

[DragonofAna]

I provided a stack load of facts for you on the link, facts referenced from 26 articles and reports.

 

Let me remind you:

 

 

 

So if these don't count as facts, to you. What will?

 

Your facts are all from a site called Iloveimmigrants. Back up your facts with statistics that can be checked rather than a site which just chooses what to give. Indeed there are citations of documents - and if I take a few words from any manifesto I can make just about anything I want and it would be accurately using words from those manifestos.

 

You have no explained how mass immigration is responsible for the creation of all these new jobs, or why - accepting the creation of new jobs by immigrants - unemployment is rising.

 

I listed a set of questions which you have continued to ignore whilst posting the same nonsense over and over. I am sure there is a site out there for IlovetheBNP and it will shed them in glorious light with lots of citations and snippets - but that does not make the site claims accurate.

 

How the hell can immigration have helped wages when businesses are setting on immigrants as low earners, and reducing jobs to part time.

 

I could go on but shall refrain from doing so. Your post is full of holes, and I am still undecided on who to vote for but continue to edge towards the BNP as the only party willing to do something about immigration and British jobs for British workers - amongst other things.

 

John X - I understand the difference between personal opinion and bigotry, and I have not stated that the BNP are faultless, but if you tell me I should not vote for a party solely because of the thoughts of some members then the whole system is ruined, because I would like to bet that there have been unsavoury thoughts from many mps.

 

John X - are you going to start condemning people because of what they think? Mind police are on their way. And I thought Big Brother stopped with spying on actions.