Religious extremists hate/fear of modern science

[tab1]

Doesn't this post make you the Troll?

In your view no doubt and am very pleased about that too. Now, h2m was a little drunk at the time of making the initial post, what's your excuse?

[Baz1]

What about evolution Baz?

 

Are you going to embrace the science or try to suppress it?

 

FJ- I am sure somewhere in our past discussions, this subject has been touched upon.

 

However, lets make one thing clear- evolution only tells us how life may have emerged not how life itself began. Any person who follows a religion and is scientifically inclined (I include myself here) cannot ignore some of the evidence in evolution (or at least within micro scales).

 

But I do find it odd that those who advocate evolution as their approach to deny existence of a Deity, simply jump to it at a flash. I mean, evolution itself was something like 9.5bn years away from when the Universe began to form! So one would really need to work backwards to the Cause and then to where evolution came...

 

Anyway, I find nothing in Islam that explicitly contradicts the theory of evolution.I therefore allow for the possibility that the hypothesis proposed by the theory of evolution is correct.

 

People who deny the possibility of the theory of evolution being at least on the right track have to provide an alternative explanation to all the genetic, paleontological and geological evidence.

 

From my perspective as a believing person who is scientifically inclined, God has set in place the laws of the Universe according to which everthing functions and the few "exceptions" to such laws, carried out by God merely proves the point rather than overturn it.

 

In addition, there are a few strong indicators in The Quran which point towards evolution- some scholars use them as pointers to the process of evolution and again, on closer inspection, it does not contradict science.

 

Suffice to say, a particular verse which sets the ball rolling (and which all evolutionists agree on) is that 'all life began from water'. One can use that alone to further study (as per my first post where the Quran tells the reader of intellect to 'go and study/research/see the signs etc).

[tab1]

FJ- I am sure somewhere in our past discussions, this subject has been touched upon.

 

However, lets make one thing clear- evolution only tells us how life may have emerged not how life itself began. Any person who follows a religion and is scientifically inclined (I include myself here) cannot ignore some of the evidence in evolution (or at least within micro scales).

 

But I do find it odd that those who advocate evolution as their approach to deny existence of a Deity, simply jump to it at a flash. I mean, evolution itself was something like 9.5bn years away from when the Universe began to form! So one would really need to work backwards to the Cause and then to where evolution came...

 

Anyway, I find nothing in Islam that explicitly contradicts the theory of evolution.I therefore allow for the possibility that the hypothesis proposed by the theory of evolution is correct.

 

People who deny the possibility of the theory of evolution being at least on the right track have to provide an alternative explanation to all the genetic, paleontological and geological evidence.

 

From my perspective as a believing person who is scientifically inclined, God has set in place the laws of the Universe according to which everthing functions and the few "exceptions" to such laws, carried out by God merely proves the point rather than overturn it.

 

In addition, there are a few strong indicators in The Quran which point towards evolution- some scholars use them as pointers to the process of evolution and again, on closer inspection, it does not contradict science.

 

Suffice to say, a particular verse which sets the ball rolling (and which all evolutionists agree on) is that 'all life began from water'. One can use that alone to further study (as per my first post where the Quran tells the reader of intellect to 'go and study/research/see the signs etc).

No Bazooka you are expected to let the ignorant of Islam group copy and paste stuff from Islam hate sites and let them tell you their belief of what you as a Muslim believe. You are not expected to contradict their self righteous world view as they Believe that people who Believe are idiots.

 

Good post by the way, as a Muslim I agree with your approach, that's not to say that is the approach of every Muslim as there may well be ill educated clowns in the Muslim world who are embodiment of what these guys accuse them of, but not of those of us who understand and accept Islam from a questioning perspective.

[Baz1]

No Bazooka you are expected to let the ignorant of Islam group copy and paste stuff from Islam hate sites and let them tell you their belief of what you as a Muslim believe. You are not expected to contradict their self righteous world view as they Believe that people who Believe are idiots.

 

Good post by the way, as a Muslim I agree with your approach, that's not to say that is the approach of every Muslim as there may well be ill educated clowns in the Muslim world who are embodiment of what these guys accuse them of, but not of those of us who understand and accept Islam from a questioning perspective

 

Fully agree with you there tabs1. I am not qualified (and don't claim to be) to take an approach from the Quranic basis and say "this is what it meant 100%". We are allowed to discuss and use the tools we have to make better judgement- and hence why I say (and you agree) nothing in the Quran contradicts science- and as science is not absolute (keeps changing) we know that this is all part of learning- new discoveries are always being made- as the Quranic verse clearly says "and soon we shall show them signs in the Universe and in themselves...."

 

However, as you probably know, we are encouraged to look at the exegesis and study- allowing the final answer to always be 'Allah knows best'.

 

As long as muslims do not go against the teachings of the Quran in the light of the understanding of Muhammad, then we will be fine.

[flamingjimmy]

However, lets make one thing clear- evolution only tells us how life may have emerged not how life itself began. Any person who follows a religion and is scientifically inclined (I include myself here) cannot ignore some of the evidence in evolution (or at least within micro scales).

What do you mean by the part in brackets?

 

But I do find it odd that those who advocate evolution as their approach to deny existence of a Deity, simply jump to it at a flash. I mean, evolution itself was something like 9.5bn years away from when the Universe began to form! So one would really need to work backwards to the Cause and then to where evolution came...

I don't think evolution does prove that god doesn't exist. However I think that it does prove that your god, and the gods of pretty much all other major religions don't exist, because all of your holy books describe how man came about and all of them are wrong.

 

Anyway, I find nothing in Islam that explicitly contradicts the theory of evolution.I therefore allow for the possibility that the hypothesis proposed by the theory of evolution is correct.

 

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but the Quran actually contradicts itself about how man came about does it not?

 

There's one verse that says man was created from water, there's one that says man was created from clay, there's one that says man was created from dust, and there's one that says man was created from a blood clot?!?

 

And then there's another verse that says that God can just say 'Be' and create whatever he wants.

 

As to your 'all life began from water' quote which verse is that, I cannot find it. I found one that says

 

"And GOD created every living creature from water. Some of them walk on their bellies, some walk on two legs, and some walk on four. GOD creates whatever He wills. GOD is Omnipotent."

 

If that is the verse you were referring to, then you have taken it greatly out of context. Look at the following parts, it describes different types of animals, and then says 'God creates whatever he wills, he is omnipotent' which heavily implies that god just sort of snapped his fingers and created them. In no way does it imply that god created tiny extremely simple life-forms that eventually evolved into more complex ones like creatures who can walk on their bellies, or on legs. If you were referring to a different verse then I apologise. But do you not think that this verse contradicts the theory of evolution?

 

In any case, even if there weren't any contradictions and they all only said one of those things, it would still be wrong. Humans were not created out of nothing, they were not created from clay, or a blood clot, or dust, or out of water they evolved from different, now extinct apes.

[Baz1]

What do you mean by the part in brackets?

 

I meant that a person can be religiously inclined and still follow science- there are many theist scientists as there are atheist scientist.

 

I don't think evolution does prove that god doesn't exist. However I think that it does prove that your god, and the gods of pretty much all other major religions don't exist, because all of your holy books describe how man came about and all of them are wrong.

 

You have jumped in the deep end here FJ- it is not as clear as ABC and needs a proper understanding- which I was alluding to in my post. I did say that there are NO contradictions from whatever is scientifically proved- it is not scientifically proved we humans that exist today decended from apes- our ancestors may have similarities with the ape world.

 

The description on how man came about talks of humans that exist today.

 

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but the Quran actually contradicts itself about how man came about does it not?

 

No it does not.

 

There's one verse that says man was created from water, there's one that says man was created from clay, there's one that says man was created from dust, and there's one that says man was created from a blood clot?!?

 

And then there's another verse that says that God can just say 'Be' and create whatever he wants.

 

If you make a cake- you dont say I just said 'be' and it was or that you just opened the packet and the cake was there- what about its componants? What about tea- is it just adding the water or more to it (tea leaves, correct water temparature, milk etc).

 

I will try to not go into the exact arabic words (as you will lose track and fail to understand) but I will for my own reference refer to the words as used in the Quran and try to simplify it..

 

There are many references to creation- but one is the creation of Adam and the other is the creation of the children of Adam (progeny).

 

Adam, was created from water/dust/clay etc, while his progeny was created from "a drop of semen". These two creations are actually two distinct stages in the creation of man. The first man was created from dust etc and later on, his progeny was created from "`alaqa", which developed from "nutfah" (a drop of sperm). The Qur'an has itself referred to these two distinct stages of creation in 32: 7 - 8, where the Qur'an says:

 

Who made excellent everything that He created. He began the creation of man from clay, then made his offspring from a drop of humble fluid

.

 

Thus, all those verses which refer to "`alaq",(this word in arabic correctly describes the foetus 'clinging to the womb) "nutfah" and the like are actually referring to the creation of the offspring of Adam, which according to the Qur'an itself was different from the creation of Adam. Therefore the subject matter of these verses, is not in contradiction with that of the others, as the two groups refer to two different things.

 

We know that from Adams perspective, he was made from sounding clay and this element is in us (we have componants of dust).

 

Two of the crucial components for the origin of life - genetic material and cell membranes - could have been introduced to one another by a lump of clay, new experiments have shown

.

 

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn4307

 

 

As to your 'all life began from water' quote which verse is that, I cannot find it. I found one that says

 

"And GOD created every living creature from water. Some of them walk on their bellies, some walk on two legs, and some walk on four. GOD creates whatever He wills. GOD is Omnipotent."

 

If that is the verse you were referring to, then you have taken it greatly out of context. Look at the following parts, it describes different types of animals, and then says 'God creates whatever he wills, he is omnipotent' which heavily implies that god just sort of snapped his fingers and created them. In no way does it imply that god created tiny extremely simple life-forms that eventually evolved into more complex ones like creatures who can walk on their bellies, or on legs. If you were referring to a different verse then I apologise. But do you not think that this verse contradicts the theory of evolution?

 

I did not quote it in its entirety simply to avoid going into the habit of using the Quran for all arguments- as I personally only do so to elaborate. But yes, perhaps I ought to have given the full verse (or its basic translation).

 

But what does it tell us? Today, scientists tell us that life began in the sea when simple molecules bonded together and became self-replicating, or self-producing. There are many verses, not just the one you dug out, which gives details on various creations in the 'heavens and earth'. Again, the muslim (use his/her intellect) is encouraged to study further and seek the truth.

 

If the theory of evolution states reptiles became animals etc... then where is the contradiction- even if we had to take that approach. If for example, man first walked on all fours and then on two (like we do today) then where is the contradiction???

 

 

 

In any case, even if there weren't any contradictions and they all only said one of those things, it would still be wrong. Humans were not created out of nothing, they were not created from clay, or a blood clot, or dust, or out of water they evolved from different, now extinct apes

.

 

The creation mentioned in the Quran as I (very basically) explained is of two types- and again, as believers, we also accept that God being God, can take any approach to life- some of it was (as it is stated in Quran) a simple matter of 'Kun! Fa ya Koon' - Be! And it was. And others was part of God's plan for life- whether it was to be an evolution for earlier life or whatever.

 

Moreover, "Be and it happens" does not negate the fact that if God wants to create something from water and soil, through a process, He cannot do so.

 

What it means is that if God wants to create something from water and soil, He would have no problems in procuring that water or that soil and nothing shall be able to stop the process that He has planned.

[flamingjimmy]

The creation mentioned in the Quran as I (very basically) explained is of two types- and again, as believers, we also accept that God being God, can take any approach to life- some of it was (as it is stated in Quran) a simple matter of 'Kun! Fa ya Koon' - Be! And it was. And others was part of God's plan for life- whether it was to be an evolution for earlier life or whatever.

 

Moreover, "Be and it happens" does not negate the fact that if God wants to create something from water and soil, through a process, He cannot do so.

 

What it means is that if God wants to create something from water and soil, He would have no problems in procuring that water or that soil and nothing shall be able to stop the process that He has planned.

 

That's a very creative interpretation Bazooka, thank you for sharing it.

[f0rd]

I did have a a post to respond to Bazooka's latest claims, but my battery died, so I'll wait for him to respond to what I have posted previously, before typing it out again incase it is in vain.

[MadnBad]

As far as i can see the Quran is just vague enough to be applied to anything and authoritarian enough to stop believers questioning it's logic.

 

Considering it is a 6th century text i see no reason why people should apply it's meanings to modern life since they were never meant to be interpreted that way same as the bible hey're intended for people who are long dead.

 

I am not a athiest i am always interested in religion but i treat them all equally as far as i am concerned greek mythology is an equal to either of the above.

[hard2miss]

Look I started a topic on a thought I had while drunk but the question still stands, do religions oppose nations for the science that they produce ?

 

Of course Islam is going to get dragged into it because its a prime example as the hate of the west is an obvious one (and the west is at the forefront of modern science), so the question arrose from wondering why.

 

I think personaly that modern science, and I don't mean things like the earths round and we are stuck to it by gravity, is conflicting with the teachings of old religions (I don't appologise if you fit this group).

The facts remain that the west and the democracies and our capitalist sociaties have advanced the sciences in the name of expansion of wealth at the expence of other sociaties including (in our own words) backward religious sociaties. These advancments have done nothing but show that these religions have little basis in the new era (as we see it) and that I why I posed the question that this could be a possible cause of conflict that we are facing daily as well as the obvious once which is foriegn policies.

 

Foriegn policies after all if coming from capitolist sociaties have their objectives at heart.

 

I am not trolling or trying to start an Islamic devide as has been suggested but only ask a question that has occured to me, albeit in drink

I don't feel however that you should not ask questions of something that effects your daily life just because one section of sociaty feels uncomfortable with it.

 

Does quantum physics, the birth pill, the quest to find life outside our planet, social science, or any other science pose a thrett to religions and are our culture in logger heads over it and we feeling the consequences of going forward in such sciences. And yes this includes Muslims, how can it not, but its not focused on Muslims per say as it can affect all religions that cannot stray out side of their teachings including the Pope who seems to think that peado preists are sociaties problem and not his.

 

p.s, I had a bottle of wine tonight that was bought me