The "coalition cuts" megathread

[donkey]

Ah, so it's all Thatcher's fault as usual.

 

It only took 5 pages to get to the default excuse used when there are no other excuses left.

 

No, not just Thatcher's fault. It was the fault of everyone who bought into the fallacy that everything would be just fine as long as their were plenty of people making a fast buck. Funnily enough, there was no storm of protest while the fast bucks were being made. It was only after it all came tumbling down that there suddenly seemed to be so many 'experts' on the 'madness' of what had been going on. Shame they didn't speak up sooner, eh?

[truconstruct]

Sorry, but I'm just not convinced by your self professed understanding of global politics and economics.

 

My post wasn't for the likes of idiots, you were told you wouldn't be able to understand beforhand.

[truconstruct]

Governments raise capital by borrowing. People will buy government debt (bonds) if they think the government will be able to repay them - with interest. Obviously the more a government borrows the more people are concerned about the governments ability to meet its debts.

 

You make it sound as if a nation is a "PLC"and the value of the assets (ie houses) appear on a balance sheet - and so if they can inflate the value of those assets they can borrow more.

 

That's exactly how it works, how do you think a countries credit rating is assertained, do you think someone plucks a figure from mid air.?

 

How many times in history do yoy think this game has been played out.

 

'Paper' is just todays equiverlent of shinney beads., the trick is in convincing someone that they are worth something.

[Wildcat]

I'm pleased that you've asked them to remove the report, thanks. It is unreliable nonsense and has no place in the public domain.

 

Because of a typo? That takes pedantry to a new level!

 

Your comment about 'unhinged loonies' is an extraordinary way to describe cogent and evidenced arguments that you don't happen to agree with. It is rather old tactic that doesn't work on me.

 

What cogent and evidence arguments? How exactly was Gordon Brown responsible for the crisis that started out in the USA? and where have you heqard anyone make that claim that wasn't an unhinged looney?

 

As for 'tax loopholes' (of which there is no such thing) it is comparatively a rare thing. You began with talking about government general tax collection being the best way to distribute wealth, and I disagreed. Your point of view seems to have morphed into an argument about large sum tax evasion which I agree should be prosecuted.

 

However, I do not see that the average business is involved in tax evasion or anything but simple and legal and allowable tax planning. Average businesses provide jobs and wealth to the majority of workers. They do so while paying taxes. The employees then go on to re-spend and pay further taxes in the way that they see fit.

 

"deliberate manipulation of the tax system to avoid tax compliance" as you call it is tax evasion covered by legislation, enforceable and punishable. If it is not then it is tax planning and perfectly legal.

 

In an ideal world I do not view it as the government's ultimate role to decide what they should spend their money on by levying higher taxes for anything other than the essentials that are required for a well functioning society.

 

There are plenty of low tax nations with low impact government's that operate very successfully.

 

High tax economies, like the Nordic systems have higher quality of life. Low tax economies tend to lower quality of life. There has to be a balance obviously, but in our case business taxes are already lower than the rest of the G7 except Italy.... hardly a shining example of an economic model to follow.

 

The evidence is that exploiting tax loopholes costs us a fortune, and costs the third world more than it receives in aid, a point made forcefully by Christian Aid in their literature on the subject.

 

I don't know why you are talking about average businesses or even what you think an average business is.

 

Tax evasion costs us billions of pounds in uncollected tax because of cuts in collection, mistakes on the part of business and deliberate and intentional evasion.

 

Tax avoidance is the manipulation of the rules to avoid compliance with the Tax regime, in just the same way that Tony Blair's umpteen companies do, or that Rupert Murdoch or Lord Ashcroft do. It is immoral, undermines the system and only benefits the wealthy that are setting out to intentionally discharge themselves of their social responsibilities.

[donkey]

My post wasn't for the likes of idiots, you were told you wouldn't be able to understand beforhand.

 

It's not so much that you had to be clever to understand it. More like you have to be a deluded tosser to believe it.

[truconstruct]

Because they failed to legislate against loans exceeding the value of the security.

 

That is all that they had to do, no more. They knew what was going on yet they failed to act with the common sense that you learn at your mothers knee.

 

It beats me Tony how anyone can be so stupid as to not realise that its not just banks that run the banking system.

[truconstruct]

Brown and blair did not regulate the banks for the same reason that the Bush administration didn't. Because there is a seamless link between them and the world of finance. Hence so many MPs get cushy directorships in the City on retiring from political life.

 

How does this statement fit with your continued line that the banks are responsible for the crash?

[donkey]

It beats me Tony how anyone can be so stupid as to not realise that its not just banks that run the banking system.

 

Yeah, use his first name. He's your big mate now.

[truconstruct]

It's not so much that you had to be clever to understand it. More like you have to be a deluded tosser to believe it.

 

Here's a question for you DONKEY, when sheffield was rate capped back in th eighties it had 16 million in reserves.

 

The first year it used 33 million from reserves to prop up its budget, the second year is used 47 million, the third year it was about 66 million.

 

How do you think this was done?

 

Do you think Blunkett had a magic wallet or do you think someone was playing the paper trading game?

[Tony]

Because of a typo? That takes pedantry to a new level!

 

 

 

What cogent and evidence arguments? How exactly was Gordon Brown responsible for the crisis that started out in the USA? and where have you heqard anyone make that claim that wasn't an unhinged looney?

 

 

 

High tax economies, like the Nordic systems have higher quality of life. Low tax economies tend to lower quality of life. There has to be a balance obviously, but in our case business taxes are already lower than the rest of the G7 except Italy.... hardly a shining example of an economic model to follow.

 

The evidence is that exploiting tax loopholes costs us a fortune, and costs the third world more than it receives in aid, a point made forcefully by Christian Aid in their literature on the subject.

 

I don't know why you are talking about average businesses or even what you think an average business is.

 

Tax evasion costs us billions of pounds in uncollected tax because of cuts in collection, mistakes on the part of business and deliberate and intentional evasion.

 

Tax avoidance is the manipulation of the rules to avoid compliance with the Tax regime, in just the same way that Tony Blair's umpteen companies do, or that Rupert Murdoch or Lord Ashcroft do. It is immoral, undermines the system and only benefits the wealthy that are setting out to intentionally discharge themselves of their social responsibilities.

 

Far too much there to reply to but what constitutes an average business is a useful and interesting point. From memory 95% of UK's business are SME's, that's less than 250 employees and less than £30m t/o. They are owned and run by ordinary folk, often owner-managers who have created the business from scratch due to their own endeavour. They are far from Murcoch or Ashcroft or any of the other auto-nasties that you might like to pick on. They spend their money on stuff like everyone else. Heck, they even give some of it to their staff!

 

Profits are good. Profits after tax are better because they get spent on stuff to make more profits rather than the dead weight administration of running a government.

 

Tax planing (avoidance as you call it) does not "cost us billions". If a government has a problem with tax planning then they should change the rules. The truth is that the tax rules are a balance (as you would agree) that allow flexibility to get stuff done and create jobs, investment, wealth and futures success. We already have the largest tax book in the world. We have more rules and regulations than any other nation and still some of you want more tax rather than create systems that encourage people to create wealth.

 

UK business does not exist to be a bottomless pit to be pillaged by government. Government is there to enable others, not to actually do stuff for themselves. Governments are not self fulfilling entities as can be seen in self contained nations like the Isle of Man where the PM equivalent runs his little electrical shop during the day. Just imagine Cameron and Clegg as part timers.