I think it's wrong to force this woman to have surgery

[margarete]

See http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/7769243/Cancer-patient-forced-by-judge-to-have-surgery.html

 

A 55 yr old woman with learning difficulties has cancer and is frightened of needles and of hospitals and does not want to have an operation. A judge has ruled that she must be forced to go to hospital and forced to have surgery and then forcibly given sedative painkillers to stop her from absconding from hospital.

 

How dreadful! She appears to have no family to protect her from this surgery against her will.

 

What do you think?

[HeadingNorth]

In a case where someone is incapable of making a rational decision, I see no problem with the decision being made for her, even against her wishes. We do that routinely with children who don't want to take their medicine because it tastes nasty.

 

When, and whether, a 55-year-old should be deemed incapable of making a rational decision is a judgment I would not want to have to make; but in the absence of any compelling reason to think otherwise, I assume that the doctors and judge involved in the case are justified in deeming her incapable of doing so.

[Pighills]

Having a 29 year old daughter who is incapable of making reasoned decisions for herself, I have to agree with HeadingNorth.

 

It tears at the old heart every time you have to make this decisions on their behalves, but it HAS to be done.

 

I hope all goes well for the lady in question.

[jfish1936]

This comes up in every medical ethics seminar.

Should we decide for those with limited ability to decide for themselves?

Who can authorise or forbid treatment for small children?

Margarete, do you know anyone with mental impairment, maybe from birth, maybe from stroke or from head injury, who cannot make their own decisions? Try being involved in caring for such a one, and be responsible for what happens. You may become grateful for a judge who clearly states what is lawful in this case, as Sir Nicholas has done to guide people in similar situations in the future.

Remember that by permitting her to refuse surgery today, we also permit her to die in a few months from untreated ovarian cancer: can be quite a horrid way to die, especially if we acknowledge her ight to refuse needles, etc, and therefore the most effective medications for her later suffering.

[margarete]

The woman is not incapable of making decisions. She has decided she does not want to have the operation for cancer of the womb. Other people have decided to override her decision.

 

She may suffer even more by being forced into hospital and into surgery she does not want. When people disregard your wishes in this way you are in a very frightening situation indeed.

[mojo1]

The woman is not incapable of making decisions. She has decided she does not want to have the operation for cancer of the womb. Other people have decided to override her decision.

 

She may suffer even more by being forced into hospital and into surgery she does not want. When people disregard your wishes in this way you are in a very frightening situation indeed.

 

She made the decision, yes. That's not being disputed.

 

The fact is, and without knowing her or being at the hearing, you can't possibly know if she was capable of understanding the decision she made.

 

If it's found that a person doesn't understand that refusing surgery will kill them and they would die pointlessly due to a fear based on lack of understanding, should loved ones and the authorities let them die? Or should they take matters into their own hands and give that person every chance of recovery and a good healthy future?

[margarete]

Many people have a fear of going into hospital. And many people have fear of surgery. They do not get bullied into either of these things they fear. The decision to force this woman into doing what she fears is being taken because she has learning difficulties.

 

"Dr Lisa Bortolotti, a lecturer in philosophy at the University of Birmingham, said the use of force would be "more controversial" if it turned out that the patient did understand but feared surgery more than death. " - This possibility is being disregarded as though the woman's fear does not matter. I consider that appalling.

 

I remember a year or 2 ago there was a little girl - I think she was 8 - and she was frightened of dentists and dental treatment. Her fear was disregarded and she was put under general anaesthetic and had 8 teeth removed. - This completely traumatised her and she refused to eat or drink or speak again and died a week or 2 later, no doubt in extreme fear.

[HeadingNorth]

"Dr Lisa Bortolotti, a lecturer in philosophy at the University of Birmingham, said the use of force would be "more controversial" if it turned out that the patient did understand but feared surgery more than death. " - This possibility is being disregarded as though the woman's fear does not matter.

 

 

This possibility has not been disregarded at all. It is precisely in order to consider this possibility that the case goes before a judge, and medical experts, in order to decide whether this possibility is in fact true.

 

They've decided that it is not, and they are far better informed, and better qualified, to make that decision than you are. Or, come to that, than I am, and I'm grateful I don't have to make it.

[margarete]

I'm not making a decision at all. I'm expressing my views. Which I still hold. I'm against bullying even when it's done by courts and by doctors - in fact, especially when it's done by courts and by doctors.

[HeadingNorth]

I'm not making a decision at all. I'm expressing my views. Which I still hold. I'm against bullying even when it's done by courts and by doctors - in fact, especially when it's done by courts and by doctors.

 

So if a three-year-old said he didn't want his medicine because it tasted nasty, you would oppose his parents forcing him to drink it?