White South African farmers/murdered

[boyfriday]

I see your true colours are being revealed at last. Resentment of anyone white from the African continent.

 

I have white relatives from southern Africa, that's why I was there in the 80's, my indignation is reserved for people who are only interested in their own at the expense of others, it doesn't matter what race, religion or colour they are, as you will see, I've been pretty critical of SA's ruling government that is black (darn it, I've said that word again, hope it doesn't offend you).

[lizmachin]

I have white relatives from southern Africa, that's why I was there in the 80's, my indignation is reserved for people who are only interested in their own at the expense of others, it doesn't matter what race, religion or colour they are, as you will see, I've been pretty critical of SA's ruling government that is black (darn it, I've said that word again, hope it doesn't offend you).

 

 

I have many white relatives still in Southern Africa, mostly who had their possessions stolen and were forced to escape to South Africa. I also had several white relatives who were murdered over there. Now I see history starting to repeat itself.

 

I keep repeating to you that my parents are Zimbabweans, but you seem obsessed with trying to link them to the South African Aparteid system.

 

I haven't noticed much improvenment to the majority of black people's lives in Zimbabwe since we left, so I just wonder who has benefitted. I now perceive the first signs of a similar situation starting to develop in South Africa. Perhaps one day all white people will be driven from the continent and leave it to the people who you seem to think own it by colour of skin. Do you think that will improve things or will the population get back to what they do elsewhere in Africa?... Kill one another.

[shims]

The speech marks were quite appropriate, how does burning crops forward the cause for freedom?

What has burning crops really got to do with the guerilla war?!

I don't think you can draw any conclusion from Lizmachin's parents decision to relocate from Zimbabwe to South Africa.

I disagree. Both nations were run by white supremacist regimes which oppressed ethnic Africans on their own land.

At the end of the day if they were forced out, they were refugees, why shouldn't they have relocated to the nearest safe country?

Apartheid era South Africa may have been safe for those of European decent but rather less so for a native African! Maybe you need to get up to speed here. How can you take a person's plight seriously when they relocate from a country that was an international pariah, (operating under an illegal regime that could only take care of it's white supremacist interests by oppressing and brutalising indiginous people), to the one next door?

 

Africa is/was full of bent nations, finding one that fits our vision of a perfectly governed country would have been difficult without leaving the continent and why should they have to do that (and was probably not on their list of priorities being refugees)?

Why should an African nation have to fit your vision of anything? Perhaps you think the entire world should be set up to suit European interests? (And ironically you called me a racist!) Regarding your comment on the 'difficulty' of finding 'a perfectly governed country': well of course, such a place may not even exist but in the continent of Africa it would not have been difficult to find one with a more satisfactory regime than that of Apartheid.

 

Shims you are extremely racist. One could use exactly the same argument to suggest that white Europeans, regardless of their nationality, have more right to be in the UK than Afro Caribbean or Asian settlers. Does a white French person have more right to be in the UK that someone of black Jamaican descent?

Perhaps you choose to miss the the key issue in this?

 

Regarding the French: it would certainly be easier for a French man to settle in the UK than a Jamaican but that has much to do with the destabilisation of Jamaica by the CIA a few decades ago and the aftermath which has led to the unfortunate events taking place on the streets of Kingston presently.

 

What I would assert is that no man has the right to invade someone else's homeland, carve it up for their use and turn the native people into their servants. The peoples of the Caribbean or Asia (which you mention) have never cast an imperialist eye over the UK according to any history I'm aware of.

[boyfriday]

I keep repeating to you that my parents are Zimbabweans, but you seem obsessed with trying to link them to the South African Aparteid system.

 

I'm not trying to link them to anything, I asked what their view was of the apartheid system not where they came from, I have a view and I'm not South African as I'm sure many others here do, however I would think black or white people who lived or had lived in Southern Africa would have reasons to regard it in a particular way.

 

Incidentally, even though apartheid in a legal form didnt operate in Rhodesia, 95% of blacks were denied the right to vote, did you know that?

[mj.scuba]

What has burning crops really got to do with the guerilla war?!

 

Quite, but apparently that is what the freedom fighters did.

 

I disagree. Both nations were run by white supremacist regimes which oppressed ethnic Africans on their own land.

 

Whilst that might be true, what has that to do with Lizmachin's parents? They were simple farmers, not part of the ruling white regime. Being white does not = being in cahoots or in favour of the government of the time.

 

Apartheid era South Africa may have been safe for those of European decent but rather less so for a native African! Maybe you need to get up to speed here. How can you take a person's plight seriously when they relocate from a country that was an international pariah, (operating under an illegal regime that could only take care of it's white supremacist interests by oppressing and brutalising indiginous people), to the one next door?

 

How can you not take their plight seriously? They were refugees and if Lizmachin's mother was pregnant with her, I'd say getting to the nearest safe place where you're not going to be persecuted is the top priority, not making a long winded assessment of the pro's and con's of apartheid.

 

I think what you are basically doing is saying they were disingenuous because of their skin colour. That again is rather racist.

 

Why should an African nation have to fit your vision of anything? Perhaps you think the entire world should be set up to suit European interests? (And ironically you called me a racist!) Regarding your comment on the 'difficulty' of finding 'a perfectly governed country': well of course, such a place may not even exist but in the continent of Africa it would not have been difficult to find one with a more satisfactory regime than that of Apartheid.

 

Please don't try to turn that one back on me. You condemn refugees for going to the nearest safe place because of the government in place at that time. What about today's refugees? Should we condemn refugees from Afghanistan that venture into Iran, or from North Korea in to China? Do refugees have to fully endorse the government of the country where they end up, or just be grateful they are safe and well?

[boyfriday]

Whilst that might be true, what has that to do with Lizmachin's parents? They were simple farmers, not part of the ruling white regime. Being white does not = being in cahoots or in favour of the government of the time.

 

 

Simple farmers they may well have been, who may not agreed with the system, but that system was heavily weighted in their favour, purely because of their skin colour:

 

"Rhodesian white people had enjoyed a very high standard of living. The Land Tenure Act had reserved 30% of agricultural land for white ownership and black labour costs were low (around US$40 per month in 1975) But free housing, food and clothing.(nurses earned US$120 per month in 1975), which had a large effect in the context of an agricultural economy.[17] Public spending on education, healthcare and other social services was heavily weighted towards provision for white people. Most of the better paid jobs in public service were reserved for white people.[18] white people in skilled manual occupations enjoyed employment protection against black competition.[19] In 1975, the average annual income per head for Rhodesian white people was around US$8,000 (with income tax at a marginal rate of 5%) — making them one of the richest communities in the world "

[mj.scuba]

Simple farmers they may well have been, who may not agreed with the system, but that system was heavily weighted in their favour, purely because of their skin colour:

 

"Rhodesian white people had enjoyed a very high standard of living. The Land Tenure Act had reserved 30% of agricultural land for white ownership and black labour costs were low (around US$40 per month in 1975) But free housing, food and clothing.(nurses earned US$120 per month in 1975), which had a large effect in the context of an agricultural economy.[17] Public spending on education, healthcare and other social services was heavily weighted towards provision for white people. Most of the better paid jobs in public service were reserved for white people.[18] white people in skilled manual occupations enjoyed employment protection against black competition.[19] In 1975, the average annual income per head for Rhodesian white people was around US$8,000 (with income tax at a marginal rate of 5%) — making them one of the richest communities in the world "

 

Obviously being white didn't count for much when they were hounded out of the country.

In the context of them being refugees and them having to flee to neighbouring South Africa for safe haven, I'm not sure what you're point is?

[lizmachin]

I'm not trying to link them to anything, I asked what their view was of the apartheid system not where they came from, I have a view and I'm not South African as I'm sure many others here do, however I would think black or white people who lived or had lived in Southern Africa would have reasons to regard it in a particular way.

 

Incidentally, even though apartheid in a legal form didnt operate in Rhodesia, 95% of blacks were denied the right to vote, did you know that?

 

 

Do you know I very much doubt that it bothered them one way or another? It was a country that had an open door when it was needed and as my father took any job that came along whilst trying to feed and house a family, often working away from home for long periods, I am not sure that it would have been a high priority around the dinner table. You probably need to see people roaming the countryside armed with Kalashnikovs and hear gunfire every night to focus your mind on your true priorities.

As refugee whites South Africa was not a great place to be, but it provided safety when needed, and that was a far more important thing to my parents. We have no complaints. We had no vote in South Africa, and I think the only elections that my parents would have experienced in Zimbabwe were Mugabe’s fixed ones, where having a vote did not influence the outcome. But if you think that sort of democracy is better that is up to you.

After we emigrated to Hong Kong things changed. Because my father brought expertise they welcomed us with open arms and it was very easy to progress. I don’t think it bothered us that we had no vote in Hong Kong. It certainly never bothered the Chinese. It doesn’t bother them now as far as I can tell. They are too busy making money out of the place using systems put in place by the British. I suppose that is why China enjoys 8/10% growth whilst Africa continues to flush itself down the toilet.

Interestingly enough we were unable to get British Passports even though we had them for the overseas territories. Perhaps it was because we could speak English and arrived by plane. This didn’t bother the Canadaians, and my parents now live there and commute to the USA[

 

So what was your opinion of the Coon Carnival? I always enjoyed it and try to coincide it with my visits to Cape Town.

 

I do think it is nice that those 95% of black voters can now vote in Zimbabwe, even if their vote is ignored when the count is made.

[boyfriday]

Obviously being white didn't count for much when they were hounded out of the country.

In the context of them being refugees and them having to flee to neighbouring South Africa for safe haven, I'm not sure what you're point is?

 

Isn't my point obvious? What the poster and others have been doing is taking snapshots from history, I've heard many times how wonderful South Africa/Zimbabwe was under minority rule, and it's always the minorities that are saying it, but they were the ones who had an interest in the regime. If things were so good then the blacks would have had an interest in maintaining the status quo too.

 

To understand some of the reasons why white farmers are being persecuted and in some cases murdered, we should have an appreciation of the system that placed them at a huge advantage over the blacks in the first place, over a period of generations.

 

Just for the sake of any avoidance of doubt, I'll say it again, that advantage in no way justifies the indiscriminate and often brutal displacement of white farmers, I'm just trying to place things in the right context.

[mj.scuba]

Isn't my point obvious? What the poster and others have been doing is taking snapshots from history, I've heard many times how wonderful South Africa/Zimbabwe was under minority rule, and it's always the minorities that are saying it, but they were the ones who had an interest the regime. If things were so good then the blacks would have had an interest in maintaining the status quo too.

 

To understand some of the reasons why white farmers are being persecuted and in some cases murdered, we should have an appreciation of the system that placed them at a huge advantage over the blacks in the first place, over a period of generations.

 

Just for the sake of any avoidance of doubt, I'll say it again, that advantage in no way justifies the indiscriminate and often brutal displacement of white farmers, I'm just trying to place things in the right context.

 

I accept all of that. What I do not accept is why Lizmachin's parents are being vilified for fleeing persecusion just because they landed up in neighbouring South Africa. Her mother was pregnant, SA was the nearest safe place. They didn't choose the government there, they were refugees. It's not their fault what happened vis a vis the colonisation of Africa, but we can't re-write history and we can't blame subsequent generations for the faults of our fore bearers, so again why the vilification as though they were part of the apartheid regime?