White South African farmers/murdered

[shims]

Quite, but apparently that is what the freedom fighters did.

Destroying crops would attack colonial economic interests. There was a war against Smith's (Apartheid in nature if not in name) regime for the liberation of the African people. I don't see a fixation with destruction of crops as being the main issue to consider in the fight for freedom and self determination.

 

Whilst that might be true, what has that to do with Lizmachin's parents? They were simple farmers, not part of the ruling white regime. Being white does not = being in cahoots or in favour of the government of the time.

My bold. We don't know this, nor do we need to but it's unlikely that anyone who would (quite rightfully!) have a massive ethical problem with Ian Smith's Rhodesian Front or the Apartheid regime would have chosen to relocate to either Rhodesia or South Africa. Emigrating to a racist state so that you can have a superior standard of living to the locals would certainly tend to suggest endorsing the actions of the goverment!

How can you not take their plight seriously? They were refugees and if Lizmachin's mother was pregnant with her, I'd say getting to the nearest safe place where you're not going to be persecuted is the top priority, not making a long winded assessment of the pro's and con's of apartheid. I think what you are basically doing is saying they were disingenuous because of their skin colour. That again is rather racist.

Even the most naive person would hardly need to take time to conclude that Apartheid and Smith's regime were evil. The only 'pro's' would come from being a white person living in a beautiful environment with wonderful weather - in a country that was set up to facilitate you and your fellow Europeans / European descendants whilst treating the native people as untermensch.

 

Please don't try to turn that one back on me. You condemn refugees for going to the nearest safe place because of the government in place at that time.

I don't need to. You're doing a fine job yourself.

 

Perhaps you should contemplate how many bordering nations Zimbabwe has before deciding that Rhodesians had no other option but to flee into the arms of Apartheid! If you choose to leave one white supremacist playground, when the natives acquire their basic rights after a bloody war and you scarper to another white supremacist playground: South Africa, rather than, say, settle in Kenneth Kaunda's Zambia or Seretse Khama's Botswana it's not hard to figure out the motivation behind the choice. The problem is that now those white supremacist refuges are running out.

[boyfriday]

Do you know I very much doubt that it bothered them one way or another?

Thanks. Do you think it would have bothered them if they were on the negative end of it?

 

You probably need to see people roaming the countryside armed with Kalashnikovs and hear gunfire every night to focus your mind on your true priorities.

Are we talking about pre or post majority rule?

As refugee whites South Africa was not a great place to be, but it provided safety when needed, and that was a far more important thing to my parents.

Maybe not a great place to be, but you were still advantaged over the blacks who were born and raised there.

We have no complaints. We had no vote in South Africa, and I think the only elections that my parents would have experienced in Zimbabwe were Mugabe’s fixed ones, where having a vote did not influence the outcome. But if you think that sort of democracy is better that is up to you.

Again, I'm not championing Mugabe, someone should have put a discreet bullet in his head years ago, although the British government were keen to support him against the republican Ian Smith.

After we emigrated to Hong Kong things changed. Because my father brought expertise they welcomed us with open arms and it was very easy to progress. I don’t think it bothered us that we had no vote in Hong Kong. It certainly never bothered the Chinese. It doesn’t bother them now as far as I can tell. They are too busy making money out of the place using systems put in place by the British. I suppose that is why China enjoys 8/10% growth whilst Africa continues to flush itself down the toilet.

I think China has it's own human rights issues, like southern Africa they're not countries I would choose to live in whilst certain sections of their communities are being woefully discriminated against, both black & white.

Interestingly enough we were unable to get British Passports even though we had them for the overseas territories. Perhaps it was because we could speak English and arrived by plane.

You'll probably find that applies to many members of the former Commonwealth, who also speak English and arrived by plane. My parents weren't granted a British passport on arrival to the UK either.

This didn’t bother the Canadaians, and my parents now live there and commute to the USA

Well done to them, they obviously have an adaptable approach to life, many of the British feckless could learn much from the example of motivated immigrants.

So what was your opinion of the Coon Carnival? I always enjoyed it and try to coincide it with my visits to Cape Town.

It's not something I've heard of or had the opportunity to enjoy, I'm sure if it's a peaceful, multi-racial celebration it will be a lot of fun.

I do think it is nice that those 95% of black voters can now vote in Zimbabwe, even if their vote is ignored when the count is made.

As I said early on two wrongs rarely make a right. The Zimbabwe political system is rotten to its core, but that doesn't mean others should also be cavalier about democracy.

[lizmachin]

 

Are we talking about pre or post majority rule?

 

 

As far as I know it was both, but as I have never visited the country I would dream of commenting.

 

 

Maybe not a great place to be, but you were still advantaged over the blacks who were born and raised there.

 

I am not convinced that that is actually the case, and as you have never lived in the country I would'nt have dreamed of telling someone who has.

 

So why do you take a little black boy as your avatar and a user name of a white man's slave? You could easily give the impression that you have an obsession.

[mj.scuba]

My bold. We don't know this, nor do we need to but it's unlikely that anyone who would (quite rightfully!) have a massive ethical problem with Ian Smith's Rhodesian Front or the Apartheid regime would have chosen to relocate to either Rhodesia or South Africa. Emigrating to a racist state so that you can have a superior standard of living to the locals would certainly tend to suggest endorsing the actions of the goverment!

 

You are assuming they moved to South Africa to maintain their "white supremacist" lifestyle (that's also a big assumption that they were white supremacists, rather than just white - again racist) when in fact they were driven out. Again, why shouldn't refugees go to a neighbouring state, regardless of the regime there? They were refugees. Do we dictate to refugees where they should and shouldn't go? Should they have a checklist of criteria that goes beyond it being safe?

 

Even the most naive person would hardly need to take time to conclude that Apartheid and Smith's regime were evil.

 

I am not disputing that.

 

The only 'pro's' would come from being a white person living in a beautiful environment with wonderful weather - in a country that was set up to facilitate you and your fellow Europeans / European descendants whilst treating the native people as untermensch.

 

It wasn't set up for me, I've never been to SA, though I have been to Zim.

You show your racism again, assuming all whites where as bad as the very worst.

 

Perhaps you should contemplate how many bordering nations Zimbabwe has before deciding that Rhodesians had no other option but to flee into the arms of Apartheid! If you choose to leave one white supremacist playground, when the natives acquire their basic rights after a bloody war and you scarper to another white supremacist playground: South Africa, rather than, say, settle in Kenneth Kaunda's Zambia or Seretse Khama's Botswana it's not hard to figure out the motivation behind the choice. The problem is that now those white supremacist refuges are running out.

 

I never said SA was their only choice, but I accept it was their choice.

My bold - would that include the basic right to beat and burn people out of their homes?

Why is it a problem that "white supremacist refuges" are running out? It suggest you think they were white supremacists, which is unsubstantiated. You assume that just because of their skin colour.

[teeny]

in Zimbabwe there have been over 5000, white farmers killed at present there are farms in Masvingo being over taken there is not out cry for there either.

Also during the land clearences in Zim over 14,000 people were killed and most of that number were children!

[boyfriday]

I am not convinced that that is actually the case, and as you have never lived in the country I would'nt have dreamed of telling someone who has.

Well since the advantages for whites were enshrined in law, it's very easy for me to comment. I didn't have to live in the country to know where I could or couldn't live, what schools/universities my children would have been allowed to attend, or who I was allowed to have personal relationships with.

So why do you take a little black boy as your avatar and a user name of a white man's slave? You could easily give the impression that you have an obsession.

Well I was once a little black boy. The name is long established and a nick name my grandparents gave to me as a child as I was happiest when ironing and using the vacuum cleaner, however it's post ironic meaning didn't escape me when choosing a username.

 

By the same token, I'm guessing your avatar is you and lizmachin is your real name..you could easily give the impression you have an obsession with yourself.

[Highfields]

The fact I wont volunteer to shine your shoes is probably getting you down though.

I think that remark is out of order.

[Highfields]

Again, I'm not championing Mugabe, someone should have put a discreet bullet in his head years ago, although the British government were keen to support him against the republican Ian Smith.

 

Well that a rather silly remark and shows your lack of in depth knowledge.

Just how did the British government know beforehand how much of despot Mugabe would turn out to be?

[boyfriday]

I think that remark is out of order.

 

Context is everything...

 

The West Indians and Pakis didn't find find an empty UK. :hihi:

[Highfields]

By the same token, I'm guessing your avatar is you and lizmachin is your real name..you could easily give the impression you have an obsession with yourself.

Only if she follwed your example.