Teaching the importance of Oil in Schools?

[Harleyman]

I'e read about it in a few Books. It's something America sweeps under the carpet now. Back in the time even Howard Hughes got involved to prevent US joining them.

 

My knowledge of history tells me that America was mostly isolationist in sentiment up to Pearl Harbor.

 

That's not exactly the same as joining the other side

[Guest sibon]

I don't want to spoil the party chaps, but peak oil has been recognised in the academic / commercial world for 60 years now and we're still no closer to the magic energy and transport solution you think will save us.

 

Cars are pretty useless without tyres and what do you think tyres are made from? Engine electrical wires are dangerous without plastic coating (made from oil), the ride is dangerous without a seat belt (nylon is produced from oil) and the finish is kind of dull looking without paint (made from oil). Plus as oil is needed to produce the hydrogen (at a net energy loss btw) I doubt the hydrogen car would get too far.

 

After all we can't import potatos or corn or wheat from South America or wherever if there's no oil available to drive the ships right

 

You ride around in your horse and cart, I'm buying one of these instead.

 

The peak oil conspiracists always seem to forget the ingenuity of the human mind. Anyone with half a brain can see that oil is running out. That is clearly a bit of a problem... and an opportunity. Even the President of the United States has that one nailed.

 

The Honda car in my link will be in mass production in a matter of a few years. There are challenges surrounding the large scale generation of hydrogen, but there is quite a lot of it in the Universe, it just needs liberating. Whoever cracks this part of the problem will make a fortune. For that reason alone, you can be very sure that a solution will be found.

 

Oh, you don't need to import potatoes or corn from the Americas. I've got loads of both growing quite happily in S10

[Cavegirl]

You ride around in your horse and cart, I'm buying one of http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx-clarity/ instead.

 

The peak oil conspiracists always seem to forget the ingenuity of the human mind. Anyone with half a brain can see that oil is running out. That is clearly a bit of a problem... and an opportunity. Even the President of the United States has that one nailed.

 

I'm sure that just before the Roman Empire collapsed because its economy became overstretched in terms of resources available that plenty of Romans were sat around saying the same types of things you believe in- ah the economy can't shrink- it will grow forever, ah people will always come up with something blah blah blah. It didn't stop the economy from imploding though did it? We were lucky that the planet had large untapped oil reserves and we've used half of them up in just one century- do you think we'd get so lucky again? And even if we did it would demand further population growth that would further decimate other natural resources such as fresh water availability, fish, topsoil etc etc.

 

This argument is not a conspiricist vs non-conspiricist situation. No peak oil theorist that I am aware of has ever suggested that the ruling elites have organised this situation specifically to further their own ends. This argument is about environmentalists verses economists.

 

The environmentalists are calling for recognition that our planet's resources are finite and are currently either declining or are on the verge of declining. The economists assert that infinite growth (and consumption) can occur on a planet with finite resources- does that simple statement not tell you anything?

 

It's the president's job to retain social order for as long as possible so of course he isn't going to tell you that oil is running out and we have no suitable replacements. Of course he's going to wait for the magic new technology- it doesn't guarantee it will happen though.

 

I'm really glad that you're growing food, I have an allotment also and I don't drive so I wouldn't miss the car. I really hope that cars will be replaced by some form of sustainable energy public transport before oil becomes too scarce anyhow.

[Guest sibon]

 

This argument is not a conspiricist vs non-conspiricist situation. No peak oil theorist that I am aware of has ever suggested that the ruling elites have organised this situation specifically to further their own ends. This argument is about environmentalists verses economists.

 

The environmentalists are calling for recognition that our planet's resources are finite and are currently either declining or are on the verge of declining. The economists assert that infinite growth (and consumption) can occur on a planet with finite resources- does that simple statement not tell you anything?

 

Our energy resources are not finite to all intents and purposes. If you look towards the east any time tomorrow morning, you will see an energy resource that can power humanity until the end of time. If you are late getting up, try looking west.

 

Add in wind, wave and nuclear power and we have more than enough energy to comfortably outlast both of us, our children, grandchildren and great grandchildren. It only takes some imagination (and the desire to make a few quid).

 

The Honda Clarity is a good example. It does 100mph, drives for a few hundred miles on a tank of fuel and emits nothing. All because someone worked out how to squeeze some protons through a membrane and make some electrons dance in an organised way. I really don't buy this end of civilisation argument, it is simply the end of the oil age. We survived the end of the steam age rather well, don't you think.

 

I'm really glad that you're growing food, I have an allotment also and I don't drive so I wouldn't miss the car. I really hope that cars will be replaced by some form of low energy public transport before oil becomes too scarce anyhow.

 

You would miss the car. More than you seem to appreciate.

[Cavegirl]

Our energy resources are not finite to all intents and purposes. If you look towards the east any time tomorrow morning, you will see an energy resource that can power humanity until the end of time. If you are late getting up, try looking west.

 

Add in wind, wave and nuclear power and we have more than enough energy to comfortably outlast both of us, our children, grandchildren and great grandchildren. It only takes some imagination (and the desire to make a few quid).

 

You would miss the car. More than you seem to appreciate.

 

Thank you for the directions on how to locate the sun in the sky, I'll bear them in mind. What you don't appear to realise is that the photovoltaics used to harness the sun's energy are made from "...amorphous silicon, polycrystalline silicon, micro-crystalline silicon, cadmium telluride, and copper indium selenide/sulfide" (See link below, page 4). These mineral elements are not quite as infinite in terms of availability as the rays of the sun.

 

Now we have a world population of just over 6.5 billion people so consider how many photovoltaic arrays will be needed to provide that amount of energy globally. We, again, just don't have the reources available on the planet. It's the same scenario with other renewables- to create them requires metals and minerals and (as Richard Heinberg indicates- see link 2) we simply don't have enough left to completely reconstruct the infrastructure needed never mind to perpetuate it. As nations compete for these minerals to provide what sustainable energy they can the prices will rise so that most countries simply can't afford the products- more bubbles, more collapses.

 

Finally, speaking as a keen cyclist I can assure you that I won't miss the car, but I would miss the bicycle.

 

1. http://www.stanford.edu/group/efmh/jacobson/EnergyEnvRev1008.pdf

 

2.

[Guest sibon]

Thank you for the directions on how to locate the sun in the sky, I'll bear them in mind. What you don't appear to realise is that the photovoltaics used to harness the sun's energy are made from "...amorphous silicon, polycrystalline silicon, micro-crystalline silicon, cadmium telluride, and copper indium selenide/sulfide" (See link below, page 4). These mineral elements are not quite as infinite in terms of availability as the rays of the sun.

 

The current generation of PV cells rely upon these elements, the next generation might not. Silicon is the key ingredient. Would you care to comment upon it's availability? If we do run out of indium, for example, I'm sure that someone will come up with an alternative. See my previous posts for a rationale.

 

Failing that, we could always use [(2E,7R,11R)-3,7,11,15-tetramethylhexadec-2-en-1-yl (22R,17S,18S)-7-ethyl-21,22,17,18-tetrahydro-22-(methoxycarbonyl)-3,8,13,17-tetramethyl-21-oxo-12-ethenylcyclopenta[at]porphyrin-18-propanoato(2−)]magnesium, which is a pretty efficient converter of sunlight into useable energy.

 

Now we have a world population of just over 6.5 billion people so consider how many photovoltaic arrays will be needed to provide that amount of energy globally. We, again, just don't have the reources available on the planet. It's the same scenario with other renewables- to create them requires metals and minerals and (as Richard Heinberg indicates- see link 2) we simply don't have enough left to completely reconstruct the infrastructure needed never mind to perpetuate it. As nations compete for these minerals to provide what sustainable energy they can the prices will rise so that most countries simply can't afford the products- more bubbles, more collapses.

 

We certainly have the ability to sustain things. Have you ever heard of recycling:o

 

Materials technology is moving at an unbelievable pace, don't worry, if there is money to be made, materials will be developed.

 

 

Finally, speaking as a keen cyclist I can assure you that I won't miss the car, .

 

But you would.

[Cavegirl]

Failing that, we could always use [(2E,7R,11R)-3,7,11,15-tetramethylhexadec-2-en-1-yl (22R,17S,18S)-7-ethyl-21,22,17,18-tetrahydro-22-(methoxycarbonyl)-3,8,13,17-tetramethyl-21-oxo-12-ethenylcyclopenta[at]porphyrin-18-propanoato(2−)]magnesium, which is a pretty efficient converter of sunlight into useable energy.

 

Again the provision of chlorophyll (why do you feel the need to hide behind that large formula?) as a large scale energy provider comes into trouble.

 

The same issues I've suggested arise with regard to having to completely recreate an energy infrastructure from scratch in a world with diminishing metal and mineral resources. There is also the issue of whether extracting the chlorophyll from the INDIVIDUAL plant cells can be done with a net energy gain- ie how much energy do we have to put in in order to get more energy out?

 

Recycling (on industrial scales) is only a viable option in a world with lots of cheap energy so we can't suddenly start to recycle at the scales required now if we know that the energy supply is running out. It simply isn't economically viable.

 

Chlorophyll research is in its infancy and it's worth keeping an eye on the progress, but then so have a dozen or more other proposed possible solutions been and in each case they've failed to produce the results.

 

Not to mention the fact that this only covers energy and could never replace the chemical provisions of natural gas and oil.

[Guest sibon]

Again the provision of chlorophyll (why do you feel the need to hide behind that large formula?) as a large scale energy provider comes into trouble.

 

The same issues I've suggested arise with regard to having to completely recreate an energy infrastructure from scratch in a world with diminishing metal and mineral resources. There is also the issue of whether extracting the chlorophyll from the INDIVIDUAL plant cells can be done with a net energy gain- ie how much energy do we have to put in in order to get more energy out?

 

It is in its infancy and it's worth keeping an eye on the research, but then so have a dozen or more other proposed possible solutions been and in each case they've failed to produce the results.

 

Not to mention the fact that this only covers energy and could never replace the chemical provisions of natural gas and oil.

 

You seem very selective in the points that you choose to answer. Do you find the idea of fuel cells, or nuclear power, or PV technology threatening to your desire to drag us back some halcyon days?

 

Or is it the case that you understand that personal liberty and a desire for wealth have always underpinned human endeavour, yet you are in denial about this.

 

Whichever it is, the human race will continue to develop. You might sit in a corner knitting yoghurt and wishing that we could all ride bikes back into the middle ages. Good luck with your quest for a simpler life, You might wish to consider the reasons why I placed the car jibes (because that is what they were) at the end of two of my posts.

 

I'm off to embrace the 21st century now and help to make a better future. Come on in, if you wish... the alternative is a return to the middle ages.

 

As for the chlorophyll name, I gave you the IUPAC name because that is what I'm trained to do. Secondly, I tend to fight cut and paste with cut and paste.

[Guest sibon]

 

 

Not to mention the fact that this only covers energy and could never replace the chemical provisions of natural gas and oil.

 

 

Again, you are wrong. If we get a reliable, sustainable energy supply, then the materials that we need can be made or recycled.

 

Sunshine is the best bet. Embrace it tomorrow.

[Cavegirl]

Well I think I've already said all that I wanted to say. I'm sorry that you feel the need to react in that way, I do realise it's not happy news, but I do think it's important to raise these issues and I'm grateful that you've given me the opportunity to do that so that others can be aware of the severity of the situation we currently face.

 

As you quite rightly say, it's not the only future and perhaps the miracle will happen, but I think that understanding the current situation we face will help people to understand some of the political and economic events that are coming our way if that miracle does not present itself.