Teaching the importance of Oil in Schools?

[Guest sibon]

Well I think I've already said all that I wanted to say. I'm sorry that you feel the need to react in that way, I do realise it's not happy news, but I do think it's important to raise these issues and I'm grateful that you've given me the opportunity to do that so that others can be aware of the severity of the situation we currently face.

 

As you quite rightly say, it's not the only future and perhaps the miracle will happen, but I think that understanding the current situation we face will help people to understand some of the political and economic events that are coming our way if that miracle does not present itself.

 

I've simply reacted in a factual way. If you have no counter argument then so be it.

[Tony]

Well I think I've already said all that I wanted to say. I'm sorry that you feel the need to react in that way, I do realise it's not happy news, but I do think it's important to raise these issues and I'm grateful that you've given me the opportunity to do that so that others can be aware of the severity of the situation we currently face.

 

As you quite rightly say, it's not the only future and perhaps the miracle will happen, but I think that understanding the current situation we face will help people to understand some of the political and economic events that are coming our way if that miracle does not present itself.

 

OK, that's great, you have identified that you and everyone else is a part of the problem. You know that we knew that.

 

So, are you going to be a part of the solutions mentioned by Sibon or will you just knowingly tap your nose and await your miracle from the sidelines?

[Cavegirl]

OK, that's great, you have identified that you and everyone else is a part of the problem. You know that we knew that.

 

So, are you going to be a part of the solutions mentioned by Sibon or will you just knowingly tap your nose and await your miracle from the sidelines?

 

Hmm I think you're a little confused Tony. The main solution so far proposed by Sibon is that we should all drive hydrogen powered cars and as I don't drive, but use a bicycle, I don't see how me taking up driving will help the environment.

 

I proposed that we revert the UK's soils back to a natural state so that we can farm without chemical pesticides and fertilisers- I think this is a more important challenge, we can manage without cars, we can't manage without food.

 

Also, I think you'll find that I'm not the one proposing that we sit back and wait for a miracle- that's Sibon's idea. Mine is to educate people about the situation and then come up with practical solutions that will enable us to wean ourselves off oil without major loss of life. Lives are more important to me than home comforts and consumerism. I make no apology for that. Until a suitable replacement is found (if it ever is) I think we should be concerned about how we can live without oil and oil-based products seeing as the current reality is that oil is in decline and we have no replacement. I'd like to remind you that the population explosion of 5.5 billion people on the planet in the last 100 years was solely due to the fact that we had a cheap energy source and chemical provider in oil and natural gas.

 

I hope that clears it up for you.

[Tony]

I'm not remotely confused. Your farming idea is, ironically, unsustainable if desirable.

 

The education is happening right now. You just have to be patient for that to take effect.

[Cavegirl]

Actually I think that great progress has been made in the areas of permaculture and organic farming in recent years. We understand much more clearly the compostion of different soils and the processes involved in their development. We have also learnt that huge amounts of produce can be grown with relatively little work if the farm is well designed. This documentary covers it very well:

 

http://www.viddler.com/explore/PermaScience/videos/4/

 

By focussing more research and energy in this area we are at least covering the necessities of life rather than pandering to peoples wants.

 

The education is happening right now. You just have to be patient for that to take effect.

 

I hope I'm free to voice my thoughts and ideas on this forum as I wish (within reason)- or are you really telling me to shut up here? At least I've refrained from personal insults and kept my answers reasonably balanced which is more than I can say for your friend Sibon.

[Tony]

I haven't seen any evidence that unmanipulated farming can sustain our domestic population but I would be happy to see some references if you do.

 

I wouldn't be so impudent to tell you to shut up. The schools that I visit (from infants up) seem to have well developed environmental curricula. These kids will grow up with these concepts embedded in their knowledge just like the new generation of workers (like you perhaps?) don't know of a life without computers and mobile phones.

 

These kids need a little time to grow up, some things can't be rushed no matter how impatient you are.

 

Sibon is quite rightly encouraged that humanity has a long history of being just a little ahead of what is needed. We're good at 'just in time'. I don't think that you should make the mistake of thinking that all is lost just because the situation is urgent and you don't see a solution to hand.

 

Meanwhile it's good that you are bringing the point to as many people as you meet because that knowledge is important and even the more esoteric points of view add to the debate.

[Cyclone]

Oil has been in decline since we first started using it though. That doesn't mean that we've reached a crisis point where we can no longer get enough of it.

[Cavegirl]

I haven't seen any evidence that unmanipulated farming can sustain our domestic population but I would be happy to see some references if you do.

 

No I haven't either, this is why I think it should be high on the priority list of research into post-oil societies.

 

These kids will grow up with these concepts embedded in their knowledge just like the new generation of workers (like you perhaps?) don't know of a life without computers and mobile phones.

 

No not like me at all. My 20's are a distant memory and I'm educated well beyond degree level. Does that answer your question? Does it make any difference to the way you perceive what I've written? I doubt it so why call it into question?

 

Sibon is counting on the just in time method. I've studied the development of human societies (alongside environmental change) and can tell you that there are many occasions in which the just-in-time method has failed quite drastically and with dire consequences.

[Tony]

You seem to want your cake and to eat it. It makes a sensible discussion difficult unless you are simply resigned to a new dark age.

 

It would be helpful to progressing the debate if you could set out your extended thoughts rather than just problems that you perceive. We can all moan - talk is cheap.

[Cavegirl]

I've been saying all along that I'm not hoping for society to collapse, but I do think it's sensible for people to start considering the fact and subsequently face the reality that it could. I want us to be prepared for that- to be resilient against the possible shocks ahead.

 

I'm sorry, but I still see this as the sensible approach. Far more sensible than worrying about cars when our food system is at risk. I'm finding it hard to see why you oppose this so much.

 

Raising some of the issues involved is very different from moaning. It seems to me that you're the one who's moaning- if you don't want to read it, don't read it and if it bothers you, drop the topic and read something more cheerful. If you want to change the tone of the discussion I'm happy to try and go along with that but understand that we simply may not agree.