Get away from my pension.

[Gordonb]

Would that be the newly founded independant Office of Budget responsibility or would it be the one created from a pool of readily available labour who just happenned to work in the Whitehall area and whose jobs were all advertised in the national press and for which they were interviewed and appointed in super quick time.

[Guest sibon]

Would that be the newly founded independant Office of Budget responsibility or would it be the one created from a pool of readily available labour who just happenned to work in the Whitehall area and whose jobs were all advertised in the national press and for which they were interviewed and appointed in super quick time.

 

No mate, that is the OBR that used to be the NUM... no, hang on... the NCB. Oh bugger it. It's all Scargill's fault. Anyone who says otherwise is .

 

Unlike you.

[convert]

You stated an opinion when you said you were unhappy paying for an "engorged" public sector. It maybe a fact about your state of mind, it is however also an opinion.

I stated the fact that some of my colleagues had been told that they have to increase their pension contributions. I stated the fact that they were happy with it when compared to the alternative of losing a final salary pension. I'll agree it is my opinion that public sector workers need to wake up and smell the coffee. Either that or they can blindly hold out for their 'rights' and drag the whole system down with them.

 

I am not concerned about what you earn.. you said you pay around a £1000 in tax a month, unless you are somehow avoiding tax that works out at roughly a 50K pa salary, which may explain why you are prepared to accept such shoddy working practices. It is bizarre to try to deflect blame on to me for expressing your boast in terms that are more easily understood.

 

You seem to be the only one who keeps mentioning the figure of £50K old bean. Has it crossed your closed, little mind that the tax I pay might not all be income tax. No.

 

People I know in the public sector that receive those sort of wages regularly work 10-12 hour days, or 50+ hours a week that they don't claim because they don't get overtime payments, they put the time in because it is part of a public sector ethos. Recruits from the private sector rarely last that long, they can't keep the pace or work to the same level.

50+ hours a week. Wow. When working my way up the ladder I would have loved to only worked 50 hours a week. In fact I'm still on call for my job on 24/7/52 basis. I still end up working weekends and some bank holidays.

 

In fact I think I once did a 72 Hour shift over a 4 day period, not including the travel time from Sheffield to Aberdeen and back. Guess what, I wasn't forced into doing it by an evil private sector employer; I did it because it was my job.

 

From my dealings with the public sector ethos it's all about how much time the employees are 'entitled' to take off sick, how long they can avoid doing a real job, and how they can screw their expenses systems. Now correct me if I'm wrong but aren't MP's public sector employees?

 

Work in the public sector is still work with a value that can be determined by comparison with private sector workers. Work that can be paid up to 20% less for doing the same work.

Then why don't the public sector workers move to the more lucrative private sector? Nothing to do with the old 'job for life' attitude!

 

None of your examples has anything specifically to do with the public sector. Most employers offer paid sick leave. It is part of the package offered that assists with staff retention and helps a company keep skilled employees. Any company in this day and age not offering such packages will under perform.

Yet they are all examples that I've observed in different areas of the public sector.

 

Debt was in decline when he sold gold and was for some years after. With the benefit of hindsight it is easy to criticise, but there were good reasons for doing so. If you want to criticise anyone about selling gold then look back a couple of decades and ask yourself why Thatcher didn't sell gold despite her plans to control inflation. Had she sold gold then, when by her own policies she should have predicted the money to be made she didn't. That forseeable failure cost us much more than Brown did.

I have no love for Thatcher and I'll agree that she did more harm than good to the industrialised areas of our country. I'll also agree that it was her fault that the benefit system started to spiral out of control. However new labore have done nothing to stop it. As for Gordon, well I'd say his tenure at both no 10 and 11 will go down as a failure; however I wish the man well and hope that he overcomes his recent issues.

 

 

because robbing from average workers is such a clever way to go about redistributive taxation.... You really don't seem to understand the concept very well do you? or is it just rhetoric because you feel threatened on your slightly above average income? Self interest is such an ugly motive.

 

Oh I understand it, and people like you all to well.

 

Band wagon jumpers, professional cause junkies, apologists.

 

As for feeling threatend, well I suppose that I might feel a little under threat. The threat that my taxes will have to rise to support the waste that is a pandemic in our public sector.

 

The threat that the number of non productive members of our society will increase, under the protection and support of you and your ilk.

 

The threat that we will continue to waste money on unproven, and even discredited green nonesense.

 

I could go on, but from previous 'debates' with you I know it's not worth the effort.

 

 

PS I'm in no way saying that all public sector employees are overpaid, wasteful and / or cuorrput. The majority that I know are hard working, but are hampered by systems that abound with red tape and mismanagement.

[Wildcat]

Would that be the newly founded independant Office of Budget responsibility or would it be the one created from a pool of readily available labour who just happenned to work in the Whitehall area and whose jobs were all advertised in the national press and for which they were interviewed and appointed in super quick time.

 

Were they not set up by the Tories in anticipation of coming in to power?

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8401517.stm

 

Hardly an unbiassed group. So it is rather relevant when even they say that public sector pensions are affordable.

[Gordonb]

Were they not set up by the Tories in anticipation of coming in to power?

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/8401517.stm

 

Hardly an unbiassed group. So it is rather relevant when even they say that public sector pensions are affordable.

 

Yes they were set up prior to the election and whilst headed by Alan Budd for a 3 month period it also includes Graham Parker, previously head of the public finances team at the Treasury.

[convert]

Interesting article here in touchstone blog about public sector pensions.

 

http://www.touchstoneblog.org.uk/2010/06/misplaced-outrage-over-gold-plated-public-sector-pensions/

 

The Office of Budget Responsibility report shows the cost of public sector pensions are affordable and whilst its projections show an increase as a proportion of GDP of 0.1% for the next couple of decades it will reduce again back to current levels in 2040 and below current levels in 2050.

 

Would that be the same OBR report that states:-

 

 

4.88 The assumptions used mean that receipts to pay-as-you-go schemes rise slightly across the forecast period. However, this effect is more than offset by the changes in demographics which cause net public service pensions expenditure to increase year-on-year, by an average of 20 per

cent in real terms from 2009-10 to 2014-15.

 

The same report that shows an increase in net pension costs from £3.1Billion in 2009/10 to more than triple that figure £9.4 Billion by 2014/5 ? (see table 4.8 on page 52 of the report)

 

 

The actual report can be found here http://budgetresponsibility.independent.gov.uk/d/pre_budget_forecast_140610.pdf

 

I'd suggest people actually read rather than the 'executive summary for policy makers' posted by wikicat.

[Guest sibon]

 

 

 

Then why don't the public sector workers move to the more lucrative private sector? Nothing to do with the old 'job for life' attitude!

 

 

 

.

 

 

I can't speak for all public sector employees, but I can tell you why I don't defect.

 

I was trained by the state, at the state's expense. I feel a lot of loyalty to the taxpayers who put me through university. I also believe that high quality education is a right, for all of our young people. I think that I provide that. So, I'm not about to jump ship into the private sector.

 

If I did, I'd have an easier life, which challenges your beliefs about the public sector/ private sector divide. For example, I'd get another 5 days of holiday per year. I'd be paid more. I'd have 33% fewer pupils. My pension would remain the same. The private schools in Sheffield are funded at roughly double the rate of the state schools.

 

Come to think of it, perhaps the public sector should learn from the private sector in terms of education. Let's have class sizes of 20. Let's spend £8k per pupil per year. Are you happy to double the city's education budget, or should I carry on with one hand behind my back?

[Wildcat]

I stated the fact that some of my colleagues had been told that they have to increase their pension contributions. I stated the fact that they were happy with it when compared to the alternative of losing a final salary pension. I'll agree it is my opinion that public sector workers need to wake up and smell the coffee. Either that or they can blindly hold out for their 'rights' and drag the whole system down with them.

 

We have all seen changes to our pensions in the last decade Public sector workers are no exception to that.

 

As to the whole system coming down because of public sector pensions. Not even the Tories own think tank is saying that. It is saying public sector pensions as a proportion of gdp will go up 0.1% for the next 2 decades at current rates and then fall to below what it is today. That is not unaffordable and it is nothing for you or anyone else to be getting their knickers in a twist about.

 

http://www.touchstoneblog.org.uk/2010/06/misplaced-outrage-over-gold-plated-public-sector-pensions/

 

You seem to be the only one who keeps mentioning the figure of £50K old bean. Has it crossed your closed, little mind that the tax I pay might not all be income tax. No.

 

I was including NI and giving an approximate figure based on this:

http://www.contractorcalculator.co.uk/Income_Tax_Summary.aspx

 

50+ hours a week. Wow. When working my way up the ladder I would have loved to only worked 50 hours a week. In fact I'm still on call for my job on 24/7/52 basis. I still end up working weekends and some bank holidays.

 

In fact I think I once did a 72 Hour shift over a 4 day period, not including the travel time from Sheffield to Aberdeen and back. Guess what, I wasn't forced into doing it by an evil private sector employer; I did it because it was my job.

 

Poor you and rather like many in the public sector do.

 

From my dealings with the public sector ethos it's all about how much time the employees are 'entitled' to take off sick, how long they can avoid doing a real job, and how they can screw their expenses systems. Now correct me if I'm wrong but aren't MP's public sector employees?

 

I have never heard of MPs described as public sector worker's before. Even if they are it is hardly very relevant to the topic.

 

Then why don't the public sector workers move to the more lucrative private sector? Nothing to do with the old 'job for life' attitude!

 

That is a pathetic argument that works both ways. Why don't those in the private sector so jealous of public sector benefits simply apply for the jobs? Perhaps the low pay and hard work and sacrifices willingly made because they are doing a service to the community is the answer?

 

Yet they are all examples that I've observed in different areas of the public sector.

 

And all examples you can see just as readily in the private sector.

 

I have no love for Thatcher and I'll agree that she did more harm than good to the industrialised areas of our country. I'll also agree that it was her fault that the benefit system started to spiral out of control. However new labore have done nothing to stop it. As for Gordon, well I'd say his tenure at both no 10 and 11 will go down as a failure; however I wish the man well and hope that he overcomes his recent issues.

 

How very magnanimous of you.

 

Oh I understand it, and people like you all to well.

 

Band wagon jumpers, professional cause junkies, apologists.

 

As for feeling threatend, well I suppose that I might feel a little under threat. The threat that my taxes will have to rise to support the waste that is a pandemic in our public sector.

 

The threat that the number of non productive members of our society will increase, under the protection and support of you and your ilk.

 

The threat that we will continue to waste money on unproven, and even discredited green nonesense.

 

I could go on, but from previous 'debates' with you I know it's not worth the effort.

 

Because your arguments are weak and see what you want to see rather than what is staring you in the face. The feeling is mutual.

 

PS I'm in no way saying that all public sector employees are overpaid, wasteful and / or cuorrput. The majority that I know are hard working, but are hampered by systems that abound with red tape and mismanagement.

 

Odd then that nearly everything you have written is contradicted by your concluding paragraph which undoes just about everything you have said. If the public sector didn't have red tape and rigorous accounting mechanism they would not be accountable to the level of scrutiny that is demanded of public sector bodies. If the National Audit Office looked at any private business the way they do the public sector they would uncover a whole host of skeletons in closets.

[convert]

I can't speak for all public sector employees, but I can tell you why I don't defect.

 

I was trained by the state, at the state's expense. I feel a lot of loyalty to the taxpayers who put me through university. I also believe that high quality education is a right, for all of our young people. I think that I provide that. So, I'm not about to jump ship into the private sector.

 

If I did, I'd have an easier life, which challenges your beliefs about the public sector/ private sector divide. For example, I'd get another 5 days of holiday per year. I'd be paid more. I'd have 33% fewer pupils. My pension would remain the same. The private schools in Sheffield are funded at roughly double the rate of the state schools.

 

Come to think of it, perhaps the public sector should learn from the private sector in terms of education. Let's have class sizes of 20. Let's spend £8k per pupil per year. Are you happy to double the city's education budget, or should I carry on with one hand behind my back?

 

First let me say I admire your dedication. To me it sounds like you are one of those rare people who have a vocation in life, someone who doesn't really care about the financial rewards, but the satisfaction of knowing that you're making a difference. I applaud you.

 

I know several teachers, who in reality do get paid a lot less than their private sector colleagues. I also know a few teachers who earn well in excess of £75K.

 

They probably also suffer a great deal more with stress. Having said that there are plenty of state schools out there that can match even the best of the public schools for the quality of eduction they provide.

 

Can I ask what extra strain would be placed on the state schools if those public schools didn't exist? How much extra funding would be freed up?

 

 

 

However the public sector doesn't just comprise of the education system., and not everyone has your lofty ideals (unfortunately).

 

Like benefits claimants, long term we have to be able to sort the wheat from the chaff. However in the shorter term we need to reduce our national debt to a level where the interest payments (along with the cost of the bank bailouts) won't cripple us for generations to come.

[Gordonb]

Wildcat , you were making a good point until your very last line. Every private company has to have auditors often internal and external. There are obviously some skeletons in some cupboards but come-on have you never heard of Doncaster. There are whole sections of the European Journal dedicated to publishing the findings of tribunals who have investigated wrongdoings by civil servants not just in the UK but the whole of Europe.