Who will suffer the most under the present parliament?

[Rupert_Baehr]

Perhaps you'd be good enough to name them

 

Glad to oblige. Here is a list of countries compiled in order of annual budget deficit (the thing which seems to be causing so many problems in the UK - the thing which you blame on 'the rest of the world')

 

Highest rank = greatest budget deficit (expressed as a percentage of GDP.) Not up to date - if you want something more up to date, find it yourself.

 

Red: Bigger deficit than the UK

Green: Smaller deficit than the UK

 

Rank Country Value Date of Info

1 Marshall Islands 673.90 2008

2 West Bank 21.83 2006

2 Gaza Strip 21.83 2006

3 Eritrea 20.27 2009 est.

4 Bhutan 19.16 2005

5 Iraq 18.54 2009 est.

6 Afghanistan 16.52 2007 est.

7 Maldives 15.11 2008 est.

8 United Kingdom 14.20 2009 est

9 Iceland 13.66 2009 est.

10 Ireland 13.13 2009 est.

11 Sierra Leone 12.35 2000 est.

12 Jamaica 12.03 2009 est.

13 Yemen 12.02 2009 est.

14 United States 11.92 2009 est.

15 Jordan 11.87 2009 est.

16 Congo, DR 11.71 2006 est.

17 Tonga 11.32 FY07/08

18 Nepal 11.23 FY08

19 Botswana 11.04 2009 est.

20 Latvia 10.95 2009 est.

21 Greece 10.79 2009 est.

22 Azerbaijan 10.75 2009 est.

23 Ghana 10.68 2009 est.

24 Lebanon 10.58 2009 est.

25 Spain 10.51 2009 est.

26 Tuvalu 10.11 2006

27 Lithuania 9.82 2009 est.

28 Vietnam 9.30 2009 est.

29 Georgia 8.83 2009 est.

30 Sri Lanka 8.66 2009 est.

31 Guyana 8.63 2009 est.

32 Chad 8.34 2009 est.

33 France 8.20 2009 est.

34 Russia 8.07 2009 est.

35 India 8.07 2009 est.

36 Malaysia 7.77 2009 est.

37 Mozambique 7.63 2009 est.

38 Venezuela 7.61 2009 est.

39 Japan 7.59 2009 est.

40 Syria 7.58 2009 est.

41 St Kitts & Nevis 7.04 2003 est.

42 Burkina Faso 7.02 2009 est.

43 Madagascar 7.01 2009 est.

44 Ukraine 6.93 2009 est.

45 Lesotho 6.90 2009 est.

46 Portugal 6.78 2009 est.

47 Egypt 6.78 2009 est.

48 Moldova 6.78 2009 est.

49 Romania 6.68 2009 est.

50 Turkey 6.60 2009 est.

51 Cape Verde 6.60 2009 est.

52 New Zealand 6.41 2009 est.

53 Kenya 6.29 2009 est.

54 Tunisia 6.26 2009 est.

55 Cuba 6.26 2009 est.

56 American Samoa 6.10 FY07

57 Benin 6.09 2009 est.

58 Slovenia 5.97 2009 est.

59 Armenia 5.87 2009 est.

60 Namibia 5.83 2009 est.

61 Austria 5.77 2009 est.

62 Malta 5.74 2009 est.

63 Mongolia 5.70 2008

64 Belgium 5.63 2009 est.

65 Albania 5.45 2009 est.

66 Thailand 5.42 2009 est.

67 Trinidad Tobago 5.39 2009 est.

68 Bangladesh 5.32 2009 est.

69 Slovakia 5.24 2009 est.

70 Italy 5.16 2009 est.

71 Cambodia 5.16 2009 est.

72 Taiwan 4.98 2009 est.

73 N. Mariana Isl 4.74 FY01/02 est.

74 Czech Republic 4.71 2009 est.

75 Israel 4.70 2009 est.

76 Netherlands 4.70 2009 est.

77 Nigeria 4.59 2009 est.

78 Burma 4.57 2009 est.

79 El Salvador 4.53 2009 est.

80 Senegal 4.51 2009 est.

81 Bosnia & Hz'ina 4.46 2009 est.

82 Korea, South 4.46 2009 est.

83 Cyprus 4.44 2009 est.

84 Nicaragua 4.40 2009 est.

85 Germany 4.39 2009 est.

86 Chile 4.36 2009 est.

87 Djibouti 4.32 1999 est.

88 Luxembourg 4.15 2009 est.

89 Estonia 4.15 2009 est.

90 Tanzania 4.12 2009 est.

91 Pakistan 4.11 2009 est.

92 Guatemala 4.09 2009 est.

93 South Africa 4.09 2009 est.

94 Hungary 4.07 2009 est.

95 Ecuador 3.99 2009 est.

96 Honduras 3.98 2009 est.

97 Mexico 3.98 2009 est.

98 Sao Tome 3.97 2009 est.

99 Solomon Islands 3.80 2003

100 Costa Rica 3.80 2009 est.

101 Algeria 3.78 2009 est.

102 Australia 3.78 2009 est.

103 Croatia 3.76 2009 est.

104 Philippines 3.74 2009 est.

105 Kiribati 3.68 FY05

106 Sweden 3.65 2009 est.

107 Mauritius 3.64 2009 est.

108 Swaziland 3.50 2009 est.

109 Panama 3.47 2009 est.

110 Peru 3.47 2009 est.

111 China 3.46 2009 est.

112 Mali 3.43 2006 est.

113 Gambia, The 3.37 2009 est.

114 Puerto Rico 3.36 FY99/00

115 Sudan 3.29 2009 est.

116 Haiti 3.26 2009 est.

117 Kazakhstan 3.26 2009 est.

118 Laos 3.25 2009 est.

119 Singapore 3.21 2009 est.

120 Uganda 3.20 2009 est.

121 Aruba 3.10 2005 est.

122 Burundi 3.09 2009 est.

123 Colombia 2.99 2009 est.

124 Finland 2.85 2009 est.

125 Zambia 2.82 2009 est.

126 Dominica 2.79 2001

127 Denmark 2.79 2009 est.

128 Dominican Republic 2.74 2009 est.

129 Macedonia 2.67 2009 est.

130 Indonesia 2.62 2009 est.

131 Uruguay 2.61 2009 est.

132 Rwanda 2.59 2009 est.

133 Belize 2.56 2009 est.

134 Canada 2.48 2009 est.

135 Togo 2.41 2009 est.

136 Grenada 2.39 1997

137 Poland 2.31 2009 est.

138 New Caledonia 2.30 2001 est.

139 Malawi 2.24 2009 est.

140 Bolivia 2.13 2009 est.

141 Ethiopia 2.01 2009 est.

142 Hong Kong 1.96 2009 est.

143 Antigua and Barbuda 1.88 2000 est.

144 Papua New Guinea 1.84 2009 est.

145 Seychelles 1.81 2009 est.

146 Falkland Islands (Islas Malvinas) 1.62 FY98/99 est.

147 Guinea 1.60 2009 est.

148 Belarus 1.53 2009 est.

149 Faroe Islands 1.46 2005

150 Cote d'Ivoire 1.45 2009 est.

151 Central African Republic 1.41 2007 est.

152 Libya 1.35 2009 est.

153 Tajikistan 1.33 2009 est.

154 Argentina 1.33 2009 est.

155 Bulgaria 1.32 2009 est.

156 Switzerland 1.28 2009 est.

157 Uzbekistan 1.26 2009 est.

158 Barbados 1.08 2000 est.

159 Suriname 1.06 2004

160 Morocco 1.06 2009 est.

161 Kosovo 0.93 2007 est.

162 Paraguay 0.89 2009 est.

163 Saint Lucia 0.55 2000 est.

164 Serbia 0.47 2007 est.

165 Jersey 0.43 2005

166 Fiji 0.43 2006

167 Korea, North 0.36 2005

168 United Arab Emirates 0.28 2009 est.

169 Turkmenistan 0.27 2009 est.

170 Bahrain 0.26 2009 est.

171 Kyrgyzstan 0.21 2009 est.

 

The UK comes in at No 8.

 

Only the Marshall Islands, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, Eritrea, Bhutan, Iraq, Afghanistan and the Maldives have bigger deficits (espressed as a percentage of GDP.

[donkey]

Glad to oblige. Here is a list of countries compiled in order of annual budget deficit (the thing which seems to be causing so many problems in the UK - the thing which you blame on 'the rest of the world')

 

Highest rank = greatest budget deficit (expressed as a percentage of GDP.) Not up to date - if you want something more up to date, find it yourself.

 

Red: Bigger deficit than the UK

Green: Smaller deficit than the UK

 

 

 

The UK comes in at No 8.

 

Only the Marshall Islands, the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, Eritrea, Bhutan, Iraq, Afghanistan and the Maldives have bigger deficits (espressed as a percentage of GDP.

 

so by that measure, Greece has a healthier economy than the UK? And North korea? Not to mention every country in Africa bar Eritrea?

 

What you actually said was there are many countries whose economies are 'in a healthier shape than the UK's.' You didn't say that there were many countries with smaller budget deficits. As I have demonstrated above - it is not quite the same thing.

[Rupert_Baehr]

At that time (last year) Greece had a lower deficit than the UK. When Greece ran into problems this year, its deficit was (AFAIR) still slightly lower than that of the UK.

 

Greece ran into problems when the rest of the world got scared by the size of the deficit and lost confidence in the Greek government's ability (or willingness, or both) to do anything about it.

 

Greeks are still doing the things Greeks do. They go to work (though some will lose their jobs) they eat, they drink and they live.

 

Unemployment in Greece is currently more than 12%.

Unemployment in the UK is only 7% (although 22.5% of the workforce in the UK don't have any sort of job at all. - (There is [according to the government] a difference between 'being unemployed' and not having a job. The difference is about 15 or 16%.)

 

Greece has been living beyond its means in recent years, and its rising level of debt has placed a huge strain on the country's economy.

 

The Greek government borrowed heavily and went on something of a spending spree during the past decade.

 

Public spending soared and public sector wages practically doubled during that time.

 

However, as the money flowed out of the government's coffers, tax income was hit because of widespread tax evasion.

 

When the global financial downturn hit, Greece was ill-prepared to cope.

 

Greece's budget deficit, the amount its public spending exceeds its revenues from taxation, last year was 13.6% of its gross domestic product (GDP). GDP is the value of all its goods and services. This is one of the highest in Europe and more than four times the limit under eurozone rules.

 

Greece's high levels of debt mean investors are wary of lending it more money, and demand a higher premium for doing so.

 

You could probably replace the word 'Greece' with 'Britain' and it would still make sense. I doubt that British public sector wages have doubled during the past decade, but I wonder how the number of British Public Sector jobs has changed? I wonder how the ratio of private sector : Public sector jobs has changed?

 

The British deficit is huge - but a lot of people outside the UK still seem to trust the British government. - Which is just as well. If the UK loses its triple A credit rating, borrowing money will cost far more and the government will have even more difficulty in reducing the deficit.

 

If the pound falls against other floating currencies, imports (especially food and oil) will cost more and inflation in the UK will rise.

[Wildcat]

The nature of the UK debt is also totally different from Greece's our debt is not short term and it is internal debt. The two and the figures you have provided are meaningless for looking at respective healthiness of the economies. The USA is 14th.

 

The public deficit can be easily rectified with time and an expanding economy, most of the countries are fairly close to one another only a few points between them.

[Rupert_Baehr]

...As I have demonstrated above - it is not quite the same thing.

 

You haven't demonstrated anything above. - Quoting my post isn't a 'demonstration'.

 

You said (Post 126) "The global economic crash was brought about by the Global (but mostly the American) financial sector, not public spending by the labour government."

 

You appear to be trying to shift the blame for government over-spending (overspending which has been going on continuously for 13 years!) onto the US banks. Those banks do have a lot to answer for, but they are not responsible for the previous government's irresponsible and profligate over-spending

 

I disagreed and I said (Post 130) "If that's the case, then given that the government has finished bailing out the banks, why is there a budget deficit of £165 Billion this year?

 

Who are they bailing out now?"

 

You then suggested (Post 137) that the budget deficits were linked to the credit crunch. You didn't produce any evidence to support that argument, nor indeed did you tell us why you think that to be the case. I had asked you why there is still a budget deficit now if - as you suggested - the budget deficit was caused by the government bailing out the banks. You ignored that question. (Which didn't really surprise me.)

 

(In Post 137 you wrote: "So you think that although the budgert deficits of every wealthy nation have gone through the roof and although this started to happen at the exact time of the credit crunch, these events are unrelated?")

 

The list of countries with far lower deficits than that of the UK shows that "the budget deficits of every wealthy nation have NOT gone through the roof."

 

Much of the argument in recent days has been about the government's plans to reduce the deficit. Few people have tried to argue that the National Debt itself is a serious problem (though no doubt most economists would prefer to see it smaller.) The Budget deficit is a grave crisis.

 

We have been talking about budget deficits. - The title of this thread is 'Who will suffer most under the present parliament?'

 

Given that most people are worried that the government's attempts to reduce (or eliminate) the deficit are what is going to cause people to suffer, then 'Deficit' is somewhat topical.

 

I said (Post 138) "There are very many countries whose economies are in far better shape than is that of the UK." That is not the same as saying 'there are many countries which are richer than the UK, or there are many countries which have a higher standard of living than the UK (though both of those statements are true, too [go look them up for yourself if you don't believe me.]

 

We have been talking about budget deficits.

 

The subject of this thread is pain caused by eliminating budget deficits.

 

You invited me to give a list of countries whose economies are in better shape. I suggest that 'better shape' does not mean 'bigger', nor does it necessarily mean 'more trusted'. A country which has debts totalling a smaller percentage of its GDP is in better shape than one which owes a larger percentage.

 

I gave you a list of those countries. It is a very long list.

 

Now you want to pretend that deficits are irrelevant?

[Wildcat]

You appear to be trying to shift the blame for government over-spending (overspending which has been going on continuously for 13 years!) onto the US banks. Those banks do have a lot to answer for, but they are not responsible for the previous government's irresponsible and profligate over-spending

 

Your premiss is flawed. There has not been overspending for the whole 13 years. For the first 3 years public spending was in a steep decline, it then did rise as money was invested in education and health, things that are hardly profligate when they are a key investment in the health of society and our futures. Over the whole period public spending has not been exceptional compared with the previous administration.

 

http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/downchart_ukgs.php?year=1950_2010&view=1&expand=&units=p&fy=2010&chart=F0-total&bar=0&stack=1&size=m&color=c&title=UK%20Public%20Spending%20As%20Percent%20Of%20GDP

 

The problems came in 2008 with the banking crisis, something that affected the UK more not because of Labour, but because of us being a centre for banking.

[rich5315]

im on benefits and i wont suffer from these changes, im classed as living on the bread line, its the ones that work that will suffer from cuts, the new government is just tryin to keep working people happy because they voted then in, but you cant make people live below the breadline with kids it will never happen, ive a missus and 2 kids in rented accomodation and the local job center wont make me work to be worse off, thats how it is !!! i need £12 an hour to be better off by £2 an hour, like it orlump it thats the way it is, and no government will let kids suffer!!!

[Wildcat]

im on benefits and i wont suffer from these changes, im classed as living on the bread line, its the ones that work that will suffer from cuts, the new government is just tryin to keep working people happy because they voted then in, but you cant make people live below the breadline with kids it will never happen, ive a missus and 2 kids in rented accomodation and the local job center wont make me work to be worse off, thats how it is !!! i need £12 an hour to be better off by £2 an hour, like it orlump it thats the way it is, and no government will let kids suffer!!!

 

I am afraid the evidence doesn't justify your optimism, Did you know you would lose £10 a week if you have been unemployed more than 12 months regardless of whether you are in a poverty trap or not. That linking benefits to CPI will cost you year on year (6% for carer's and jobseeker's allowance by 2015) and that next year if you aren't in a house at 30% or less of the average cost they will make you pay the difference? That also doesn't count the impact that cuts in public services will have on you, a whole raft of employment schemes and measures to support children have already been cut, the fall out from the 25% cuts will be fully known in Autumn. But there is no reason for your optimism.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jun/27/osborne-budget-cuts-hit-poorest

[donkey]

http://www.ukpublicspending.co.uk/downchart_ukgs.php?year=1950_2010&view=1&expand=&units=p&fy=2010&chart=F0-total&bar=0&stack=1&size=m&color=c&title=UK%20Public%20Spending%20As%20Percent%20Of%20GDP

 

The problems came in 2008 with the banking crisis, something that affected the UK more not because of Labour, but because of us being a centre for banking.

 

Exactly, and no amount of spin and bull is ever going to obscure that fact.

[rich5315]

if they make me work for my benefits then so be it, kay sera sera, but they will not cut benefits they cant , all the government are trying to do is make the working population happier that people on benefits are going to have the hardest time, but just you watch its the middle classes that are going to be worst hit, the ones that voted them in. anyway a 25% cut in benefits will still make better off not working, but before you jump to conclusions ive worked for 30 years this is the first time ive not worked, i live at the coast now and making the most of the weather and beach, who can fault me, anyone pulls me down for it its cus there jealous and anybody who had the chance would take it just like i have so dont scoff