Is Jesus Lucifer ?

[Cavegirl]

Pretty much agree with all of that.

 

What reason is there to assume that there are any 'divine truths' in the bible at all?

 

For what reason do you assume there are any deep 'truths' to be had in the bible at all?

 

I agree wit the whole 'the bible is like a science book of it's time' idea.

But that doesn't mean it's worth reading.

 

I mean you wouldn't go and read a 200 year old science book to find out about something like, say, continental drift. Because as far as they were concerned it didn't happen.

 

Would anyone argue the the old ideas (that the continents have always been the way they are now) still hold some 'truth' in them even though they're wrong?

 

No, so why do it with the bible?

 

It is in effect an obsolete science book.

 

Well, as I said at the start, the Bible is part science and part spirituality.

 

It is important for those people who are trying to determine the spiritual 'truths' that are hidden in the Bible- those who are in search of the divine. We can assume that these truths existed because we have an extensive literary history of relatively contemporary authors who have told us that these truths existed. I guess many are attracted to the mystery of it all.

 

The Bible is about more than just science, it also offers a moral code and a link back to a very ancient human tradition of calling upon the spirit world to assist those in the earthly world.

 

Some people find comfort in believing in the afterlife- the extension of consciousness- I think this is still the main strength of the Bible as it offers hope to the frightened in this respect. It also offers a strong philosophy with regard to how people ought to treat others and many Christians, I imagine, appreciate this guidance and value the idea that they can be forgiven for their sins.

 

Science cannot offer these comforts- it's objective, a-moral and cold in this regard. Perhaps one day the scientific community will move more towards reassessing this viewpoint, but until that happens I think the Bible will always have a stong(ish) hold in western society.

[HeadingNorth]

I'm not sure about that HeadingNorth, I really am not.

 

I know you aren't. Fortunately, academic research and established evidence is very sure indeed, and count for a lot more than your babblings on this forum, which do more harm to Christian beliefs than most atheist attempts to decry it ever will.

[ALZYMER]

Do you mean 'barmpots'? Anyway, according to the resident USA experts, I've never even been to America, let alone NYC ... so that can't be my influence, can it?

 

 

FYI: The Jehovah's Witnesses, who believe as you do, are headquartered in Brooklyn, New York.

[Grahame]

I know you aren't. Fortunately, academic research and established evidence is very sure indeed, and count for a lot more than your babblings on this forum, which do more harm to Christian beliefs than most atheist attempts to decry it ever will.

 

I have a book by my side, one of many, called the "Message of the Bible" it is edited by the Right Rev. Dr George Carey and the list of scholarly contributators would amaze you.

 

It is books like these that I turn to for reference and it would be nice to see other contributors turning to Christian writers also.

 

I had a quick look at what it said about Ruth, Esther, Daniel before I posted to refresh my memory and I will say no more unless you want to contradict some of the worlds leading theologians.

[Flowersfade]

the free masons are a bunch of ******s.

i find it offensive refering to Jesus as lucifer. neither Mohammed nor jesus are lucifer.

[flamingjimmy]

Well, as I said at the start, the Bible is part science and part spirituality.

 

It is important for those people who are trying to determine the spiritual 'truths' that are hidden in the Bible- those who are in search of the divine. We can assume that these truths existed because we have an extensive literary history of relatively contemporary authors who have told us that these truths existed. I guess many are attracted to the mystery of it all.

So these spiritual truths must exist because religious people say they do? Sorry but that doesn't really cut it for me. Also is there any chance you could give an example of a 'spiritual truth' because to be honest, I'm not quite sure what you mean.

 

The Bible is about more than just science, it also offers a moral code and a link back to a very ancient human tradition of calling upon the spirit world to assist those in the earthly world.

An outdated moral code that no-one lives by anymore and making people easy targets for mediums charlatans, well that's just great.

 

Some people find comfort in believing in the afterlife- the extension of consciousness- I think this is still the main strength of the Bible as it offers hope to the frightened in this respect. It also offers a strong philosophy with regard to how people ought to treat others and many Christians, I imagine, appreciate this guidance and value the idea that they can be forgiven for their sins.

I agree, but I'm not sure what this has to do with what we were discussing.

 

Science cannot offer these comforts- it's objective, a-moral and cold in this regard. Perhaps one day the scientific community will move more towards reassessing this viewpoint, but until that happens I think the Bible will always have a stong(ish) hold in western society.

I for one hope that the scientific community never starts moralising at people, it is not their place. They are there to do science.

An alternative future scenario would be one in which people no longer need an external moral guide and can just look to themselves.

[HeadingNorth]

I have a book by my side, one of many, called the "Message of the Bible" it is edited by the Right Rev. Dr George Carey and the list of scholarly contributators would amaze you.

 

It would amaze me that you call them scholarly when they are in fact religious. I thought even you knew the difference between those two things.

[HeadingNorth]

the free masons are a bunch of ******s.

i find it offensive refering to Jesus as lucifer. neither Mohammed nor jesus are lucifer.

 

Jesus claimed that he was. It's in Revelation, I believe.

 

 

If you'd stop conflating Lucifer, the title, with Satan, the being, then maybe it would offend you so much.

[Grahame]

Jesus claimed that he was. It's in Revelation, I believe.

If you'd stop conflating Lucifer, the title, with Satan, the being, then maybe it would offend you so much.

 

You have it wrong. Revelation 22:16 says this:

 

I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

 

Meaning Jesus is the bringer of light.

[Cavegirl]

1. So these spiritual truths must exist because religious people say they do? Sorry but that doesn't really cut it for me. 2. Also is there any chance you could give an example of a 'spiritual truth' because to be honest, I'm not quite sure what you mean.

 

3. An outdated moral code that no-one lives by anymore and making people easy targets for mediums charlatans, well that's just great.

 

I agree, but I'm not sure what this has to do with what we were discussing.

 

4. I for one hope that the scientific community never starts moralising at people, it is not their place. They are there to do science.

5. An alternative future scenario would be one in which people no longer need an external moral guide and can just look to themselves.

 

Hmm, this is funny for me to try to answer because I am myself an atheist and a scientist, but that doesn't mean I want to deride the beliefs of others (although I have fallen into this trap at times), I'm just interested in the history and philosophy of religion and what that can still teach us today. So please understand that I'm largely arguing for the opposition here

 

1. The widespread idea that the Bible holds mysteries really stems from the Renaissance period during which scholars such as Pico, Ficino, De Bussi, Perotti etc all tried to deduce the meanings of some of the symbology by comparing the Bible with Pagan and Hebrew tradition.

 

Pico della Mirandolla for example, argued that because Moses had, on 2 occasions, spent 40 days at Mount Sinai in order to receive the tablets of the 10 commandments he had obviously received more information from God- or why spend 40 days there? He believed that these divine secrets had been passed down through oral tradition and were still transmitted by rabbi's as the Cabbala. - The law was given to many (through the Bible), but its spiritual understanding to the few (through the Cabbala).

 

However, as early as the 2nd century AD Origen wrote that Christ preached parables to the masses, but revealed many mysteries to his disciples which were communicated by word of mouth.

 

So the belief has been around for a very long time that these mysteries exist, but to really understand them is of course impossible because you cannot prove or refute a purely oral tradition if you're not one of the initiated (if they even exist).

 

Still I think if you have a reasonable understanding of pre-Christian east Meditterranean pagan mythology you can pick out certain elements of the Bible- the Trinity, the Nativity, the astrological references etc that strongly hint towards meanings that run deeper than the surficial story and have older roots. I'm sure I've read that there is also a lot of Hindu philosophy wrapped up in Christianity too.

 

I don't want to get into individual examples because, as I say, in the absence of documented explanations I think all possible meanings are valid. However these websites have quite interesting ideas without being preachy:-

 

http://www.apocalipsis.org/symbology.htm

http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_symb.htm

 

2. I'd define a 'spiritual truth' as either a philosophical idea or a divine statement, depending upon whether or not you believe in God. It's the philosophy that interests me personally.

 

3. The moral code of the Bible is perhaps out-dated (we have a more than comprehensive system of law), but it has been a great protection to us historically in a sense. We've had a tradition of 'all people equal under God' which meant that (in an ideal world anyway) no one was above the law. People in post-Christian western society, no matter how rich or powerful, have not been able to claim god-like status, a strong form of tyranny- just look at some of the crazier exploits of the pagan Roman emperors. So I think in this respect, the Bible has been a saving grace.

 

4. The scientific community actually moralises all of the time- they are after all human. Most research is done in Universities and to do research there you must complete an ethical form about your work and, if it's considered necessary, attend a ethics committee meeting before you start work. Science is also subject to law which tends to keep researchers from performing the types of eugenics experiments that were permitted in Hitler's Germany or other similar atrocities though some countries are more lax than others.

 

5. With regard to your last point, I have the same (probably too) idealistic view. I was never raised in a religious family, but I still know right from wrong, I'm not perfect but I'm no monster either. We do learn most of our values from our parents so I think it's largely externalised anyway though.