Plain Talker Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 Why are you curious, EB? Because extremists (of many faiths) condemn homosexuality, does not mean that I have to. Some extremist Christians wear white sheets, and pillow case hoods, and burn crosses and lynch black people... When I was following Christianity, did I agree with that? No, I didn't. Would you question a Christian being a Christian if they said they were "pro gay" or "pro abortion choice"? As a Christian, I was pro choice, not anti-abortion. ( Burn me, *shrug* I'm a heretic - I made little bunny rabbits cry when I typed that! There are plenty of catholic Christians who don't toe the party line about Vatican Roulette being the only acceptable method of birth control... There are Muslims who drink alcohol, and smoke. (I know of one or two who even ate bacon) Islam is supposed to be about following the moderate, "middle line", neither being too harsh, nor too lax:- neither overindulgent, nor being an ascetic. I have explained what I have learnt about Islamic philosophies, and that Islam is also about rights, and I do not see my being pro-feminism, pro gay, and anti-disablist as in any way contradicting my beliefs. For me, supporting Gay rights, Women's rights is about Human rights, and I don't see any conflict between supporting those rights and being Muslim. Religion is a personal thing, though. How one person experiences faith is different than the next person's experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plain Talker Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 PS, Ebony-Branch, I don't see it as "tolerance" of gay people... that word, to me, smacks more of "grudging acceptance", an "Oh, *groan* if you must..." a sort of "enduring" it. my viewpoint is more "I don't have a problem", and an " it's not up to me". Which is one of the reasons why I don't come on the forum proselytising, and saying "I'm the only one who is right, and you lot 'MUST' all follow this religion, deist, theist, polytheist or atheist!" I don't have the right to say that. what I have the right to do, and what I have the right to say is "I follow my faith, you follow yours, so long as I am hurting no-one, and you are hurting no-one. what's the difficulty?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Number Six Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 Would you question a Christian being a Christian if they said they were "pro gay" or "pro abortion choice"? As a Christian, I was pro choice, not anti-abortion. ( Burn me, *shrug* I'm a heretic - I made little bunny rabbits cry when I typed that! There are plenty of catholic Christians who don't toe the party line about Vatican Roulette being the only acceptable method of birth control... There are Muslims who drink alcohol, and smoke. (I know of one or two who even ate bacon)... Religion is a personal thing, though. How one person experiences faith is different than the next person's experience. If you're going to start making your own decisions about what your god does and doesn't want you to do, what function is left for him/her? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plain Talker Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 If you're going to start making your own decisions about what your god does and doesn't want you to do, what function is left for him/her? You tell me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Number Six Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 You tell me? I would suggest there is no role left. There is no value in a deity whose moral values can be questioned and overridden by their adherents. You are either god, or you're not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artisan Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 It is interesting to see the number of people on here, otherwise rational intelligent people, denying the existence of God, or some superior force. It is all very well, for the shock value as a youngster to claim to be an atheist, but as people get older, the claim wears a bit thin. The more experience you gain, and the more you learn, you realise that the less mankind actually knows. I have read and learned much about the structure of matter and electron theory etc, and many people still claim it to be scientific logic, bunkum. The electron (if it exists at all) can be in as many places as it wants to be, all solid matter is 99.999% empty space, or whatever. Superior forces are controlling these things whether you like it or not. This is not to say that whatever it is, is interested in us ;merely that it exists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EbonyBranch Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 Why are you curious, EB? Because extremists (of many faiths) condemn homosexuality, does not mean that I have to. Some extremist Christians wear white sheets, and pillow case hoods, and burn crosses and lynch black people... When I was following Christianity, did I agree with that? No, I didn't. Would you question a Christian being a Christian if they said they were "pro gay" or "pro abortion choice"? As a Christian, I was pro choice, not anti-abortion. ( Burn me, *shrug* I'm a heretic - I made little bunny rabbits cry when I typed that! There are plenty of catholic Christians who don't toe the party line about Vatican Roulette being the only acceptable method of birth control... There are Muslims who drink alcohol, and smoke. (I know of one or two who even ate bacon) Islam is supposed to be about following the moderate, "middle line", neither being too harsh, nor too lax:- neither overindulgent, nor being an ascetic. I have explained what I have learnt about Islamic philosophies, and that Islam is also about rights, and I do not see my being pro-feminism, pro gay, and anti-disablist as in any way contradicting my beliefs. For me, supporting Gay rights, Women's rights is about Human rights, and I don't see any conflict between supporting those rights and being Muslim. Religion is a personal thing, though. How one person experiences faith is different than the next person's experience. That's all lovely and fluffy, but how do you reconcile such beliefs with Islam? Do you believe that the Quran is the word of Allah, transmitted through Mohammed? The Quran makes Alla's feelings about hoosexuality fairly plain, for example: "Do you approach the males of humanity, leaving the wives that Allah has created for you? But you are a people who transgress" Koran (26:165-66) If you do accept the Quran as the word of Allah, then do you accept that Allah does not like homosexuals? If not, why not? If you don't accept the Quran, in what sense are you a Muslim? If you do accept that Allah does not like homosexuals, how can you justify ignoring Allah's feelings on the matter? Do you accept any of the Hadith? If so, which ones? I know some Muslims don't accept any. Do the Hadith you accept (if any) say anything about punishments for homosexuality? If you don't agree with core scriptures and tenets of belief of the faith you claim to follow, I don't know how you can honestly describe yourself as a follower of that faith. It'd be like me saying: "I'm an atheist, but I believe Jesus loves me".... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EbonyBranch Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 It is interesting to see the number of people on here, otherwise rational intelligent people, denying the existence of God, or some superior force. It is all very well, for the shock value as a youngster to claim to be an atheist, but as people get older, the claim wears a bit thin. The more experience you gain, and the more you learn, you realise that the less mankind actually knows. I have read and learned much about the structure of matter and electron theory etc, and many people still claim it to be scientific logic, bunkum. The electron (if it exists at all) can be in as many places as it wants to be, all solid matter is 99.999% empty space, or whatever. Superior forces are controlling these things whether you like it or not. This is not to say that whatever it is, is interested in us ;merely that it exists. Your whole claim to knowledge of a higher being is founded in an assertion of ignorance (chiefly your own ignorance). Do you really think that ignorance is a sound grounding for a positive metaphysical assertion? I am an atheist about all of the gods that have been described to me so far. Tomorrow I might hear of a god for whom there is credible evidence, or at who is at least not logically impossible unlike all the ones I've dismissed so far. In that sense I am also an agnostic - I have no definitive knowledge of the existence of a god and remain open to persuasive evidence. I am describing a state of reasoned ignorance. You are just saying: "Oooh, it's really complicated. Must have been a god wot diddit!"" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artisan Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 Why are you curious, EB? Because extremists (of many faiths) condemn homosexuality, does not mean that I have to. Some extremist Christians wear white sheets, and pillow case hoods, and burn crosses and lynch black people... When I was following Christianity, did I agree with that? No, I didn't. Would you question a Christian being a Christian if they said they were "pro gay" or "pro abortion choice"? As a Christian, I was pro choice, not anti-abortion. ( Burn me, *shrug* I'm a heretic - I made little bunny rabbits cry when I typed that! There are plenty of catholic Christians who don't toe the party line about Vatican Roulette being the only acceptable method of birth control... There are Muslims who drink alcohol, and smoke. (I know of one or two who even ate bacon) Islam is supposed to be about following the moderate, "middle line", neither being too harsh, nor too lax:- neither overindulgent, nor being an ascetic. I have explained what I have learnt about Islamic philosophies, and that Islam is also about rights, and I do not see my being pro-feminism, pro gay, and anti-disablist as in any way contradicting my beliefs. For me, supporting Gay rights, Women's rights is about Human rights, and I don't see any conflict between supporting those rights and being Muslim. Religion is a personal thing, though. How one person experiences faith is different than the next person's experience. Religion is a personal thing, between oneself and ones God. What is the point in following an organised, strict religion, such as the Roman church, or Islam, if you are not going to follow its teachings? If you believe in birth control and abortion, why be a Roman Catholic? If you drink alcohol and eat pig meat, how can you be a Muslim? It as as bad as being a hostage taker or suicide bomber in the eyes of God, or to use another name, Allah. With the gods of organised religion, there are no grey areas, you are either for them, or against them. Temporary forgiveness may be given, but it must be paid for. It is far better to make your own peace, along lines which you are capable of following, than to follow the harangues of organised set ups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artisan Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 Your whole claim to knowledge of a higher being is founded in an assertion of ignorance (chiefly your own ignorance). Do you really think that ignorance is a sound grounding for a positive metaphysical assertion? I am an atheist about all of the gods that have been described to me so far. Tomorrow I might hear of a god for whom there is credible evidence, or at who is at least not logically impossible unlike all the ones I've dismissed so far. In that sense I am also an agnostic - I have no definitive knowledge of the existence of a god and remain open to persuasive evidence. I am describing a state of reasoned ignorance. You are just saying: "Oooh, it's really complicated. Must have been a god wot diddit!"" If that is what you think, then you are a simpleton, in the nicest sense of the word. God laid his hand on this Universe once, and once only. About 15 billion years ago. From nothing (not a vacuum, not an absence of space, truly nothing), the entirety of space, time and matter was created, in an instant. At that moment, all the laws of physics, matter, thermodynamics, gravity, what you will, were laid down forever, unchangeable and fixed. I very much doubt, from your puerile reply that you even have a vague idea of my meaning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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