Wildcat Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 I think it rather sad to think so many people have such a low opinion of humanity that they think we would only provide for ourselves under a wage system. Work is stimulating and interesting, it is unfortunate work is often associated with misery because of the working environments we tend to experience. Excessive targets, bullying managers long working hours... does work really have to be like that? and if it wasn't.... why wouldn't people want to work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildcat Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 You may be interested in this short (15 mins) philosophical video that considers the idea of 'freedom' in capitalist society. I've posted it before, but it's so good (and interesting/ thought provoking) that I should probably post it on every thread It's by Stefan Molyneux and this is his main site which contains lots of similar short philosophical podcasts- http://www.freedomainradio.com/ Interesting video on statism.... but what do you replace the state with? Do you think from Anarchy comes Order in a kind of emergent fashion? do you see workers organising themselves via networks of soviets? or do you think there remains a role for the state in some form? We can't go back to living like insular village communities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katy1981 Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 I love you I have thought about what I said in the OP and have now decided I don't agree with it. ok i dont get it? what did i say? i suspected you were not being serious and may have been a troll but i went with it as i had a couple of hours too kill before work, you kept me entertained today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cavegirl Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 Interesting video on statism.... but what do you replace the state with? Do you think from Anarchy comes Order in a kind of emergent fashion? do you see workers organising themselves via networks of soviets? or do you think there remains a role for the state in some form? We can't go back to living like insular village communities. These are all darn good questions and I don't have all of the answers. I like the Venus Project idea of having a series of global computer mainframes and networks to replace governments (like an advanced version of the internet) which individuals use to order resources, communicate with each other, educate themselves, work with to develop new technologies and generally get things done. No communist bureaucracy to over-complicate things, but still a shared pool of resources (at local, regional, national and international scales) that people can request access to and then return the item to once used. Now you may be thinking 'Computer says no' right now, but if you think about the world as it is then you probably get a heck of a lot of 'Lack of money says no' right now. A computer would not make judgements on your social status, everyone's equal to a computer if it's programmed to work that way and therefore everyone has the equal right to resources, so if it were possible for you to get it, you'd get it. A lack of personal property but access to everything available means no theft, no muggings, no burglary, no hoarding, no wars for access to resources etc etc. It seems a much more logical, progressive and fairer system to me. The communication part of it would enable people to join together to get things done. I've just read a thread on this forum in which a lady needed a new carpet laying in a cat sanctuary. Not only did someone volunteer to lay her carpet, but another kind chap offered to clean all of her other carpets. It's a small-scale example, but I think it could work for larger projects too. People like to volunteer their services to help, but they feel belligerent about working to survive. As I've already suggested, technology would do all of the mundane labour that no human wanted to do anyway. The concepts of 'nations' and 'countries' would end and people would be free to travel and explore the world, to live where they like, for as long as they like. They'd just need to redirect the resources they need via the computer. There are some problems with this idea at the moment but the freeing up of resources and minds to tackle such issues could go a long way towards solving them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rupert_Baehr Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 Working is hard work and can be really boring. I don't think people should be made to work or made to feel bad about not working. They should be given a living wage and the people who do like to work hard should pay for it out of their taxes. Especially the "middle class". They don't need all that money anyway. People who don't work still like to drink, smoke, enjoy decent TV, sound and video gaming systems. Why do you want to deprive them of this pleasure by not giving them your money? People who don't work always seem to get a hard time from those who do work. It's not fair or very nice. Discuss. Nothing to discuss. Read the Green Party Manifesto (particularly the bit about the 'social wage' - It's all in there.) :hihi::hihi: The Greens are committed to giving EVERYBODY (each individual) a non means-tested state-provided salary which will be enough to provide food, clothing, accommodation and sufficient money to enable the individual to enjoy the fruits of ordinary societal life. (That probably includes an I-phone, going to the pub and going clubbing at weekends.) Could you live on; say 14k a year? (AFTER TAX)? But it will be non means tested ... So Mr Smiff (and Mrs Smiff and the 4 Smiff sprogs) will each receive 14k a year after tax. That'a a non-means-tested tax-free income of £84,000 a year (after tax) for the Smiff family. Mr Smiff used to drive a bus. If he goes to work he will pay a fortune in taxes (how the hell is the government going to give him £84k a year tax free unless somebody pays? Maybe he'll see the light and stay at home. Mr Smiff used to drive a bus. When your bus doesn't turn up, phone your local Green Party representative and find out why. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danot Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 Working is hard work and can be really boring. I don't think people should be made to work or made to feel bad about not working. They should be given a living wage and the people who do like to work hard should pay for it out of their taxes. Especially the "middle class". They don't need all that money anyway. People who don't work still like to drink, smoke, enjoy decent TV, sound and video gaming systems. Why do you want to deprive them of this pleasure by not giving them your money? People who don't work always seem to get a hard time from those who do work. It's not fair or very nice. Discuss. This is a wind up:hihi:. Nevertheless, i'll add my two penneth. We could spend hours mulling over the things that we all feel we've got to do!. But in reality, when you think about it, there are no got to do's in life. Life is choice and consequence, plain and simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
practitioner Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 I feel I would have no choice in the venus project, however it does sound like utopia but to for unnatural for my liking. bring on the end of man kind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cavegirl Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 I feel I would have no choice in the venus project, however it does sound like utopia but to for unnatural for my liking. bring on the end of man kind. I think I understand somewhat what you mean. When I first heard about the Venus Project in the Zeitgeist movie I thought the idea was great, but the conceptualised art that Fresco produced seemed too 1970's futuristic for my liking- it was his own personal taste- a bit too cold, a bit too functional for me. I didn't like the lack of regional diversity that it was implying either- what's the point of being able to travel the world if the whole world looks the same? In addition the idea of scrapping the old cities and starting again seems too wasteful in a world with diminishing resources. However, why do you feel it would inhibit choice? What types of choices are you thinking of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tipex Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 Working is hard work and can be really boring. I don't think people should be made to work or made to feel bad about not working. They should be given a living wage and the people who do like to work hard should pay for it out of their taxes. Especially the "middle class". They don't need all that money anyway. People who don't work still like to drink, smoke, enjoy decent TV, sound and video gaming systems. Why do you want to deprive them of this pleasure by not giving them your money? People who don't work always seem to get a hard time from those who do work. It's not fair or very nice. Discuss. I agree i shouldn't have to work! On a serious note, i think we should work less hours and enjoy abit more life without always worrying about money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seadograwson Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 Working is hard work and can be really boring. I don't think people should be made to work or made to feel bad about not working. They should be given a living wage and the people who do like to work hard should pay for it out of their taxes. Especially the "middle class". They don't need all that money anyway. People who don't work still like to drink, smoke, enjoy decent TV, sound and video gaming systems. Why do you want to deprive them of this pleasure by not giving them your money? People who don't work always seem to get a hard time from those who do work. It's not fair or very nice. Discuss. i take it your on the dole yourself another lay about. nice to know my hard earn tax has paid for your computer and internet to post that message Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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